Mormonism's Galileo Moment

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Hagoth
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Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:18 pm

I recently heard someone (on Mormon Stories?) refer to the Lamanite DNA problem as "Mormonism's Galileo Movement," and decided to use that as the title for a paper I just wrote for a Philosophy of Religion class.

Graey's post about European plagues and Native Americans made me think someone here might like to read it. It's talks about about the crash of the Good Ship Zion with the DNA iceberg, and how the church could take advantage of a potential Galileo Moment to shed some apologetic fat. It borrows from my annotated response to the DNA essay, with a little more philosophy thrown in. And is MUCH shorter.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o9p8lc ... sp=sharing
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by moksha » Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:13 am

So when do we get to hear you on Mormon Stories, or the more academic ones by Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by Hagoth » Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:14 pm

moksha wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:13 am
So when do we get to hear you on Mormon Stories, or the more academic ones by Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon?
I dunno. Nobody asked? Too introverted? I'll be the first guest on your podcast, Moksha.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by moksha » Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:03 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:14 pm
I dunno. Nobody asked? Too introverted? I'll be the first guest on your podcast, Moksha.
Philo Soffee at Discuss Mormonism told me he would be mentioning that to some others. I have been promoting both you and Shulem as two people who should be on one of those podcasts. I know you've got a lot of good info bottled up inside that should be shared. I am just curious about finding a way to make that happen. I am happy they finally listened to me about having Philo/Kerry on a podcast, now it needs to happen for you and Shulem.

Hope I am not being too pushy with that idea, but I would like to see you get some deserved recognition.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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deacon blues
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by deacon blues » Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:37 pm

I'd love to hear Hagoth on Mormon Stories. :D
Like Galileo's helio-centrism, DNA is a world view changer. It has totally changed how evidence is evaluated in the courtroom. It confirms Darwin's Theory of Evolution. Forensics, especially DNA, now supersedes witness testimony in the courtroom, as it should. And DNA has changed how we look at the BOM. It supersedes the 11 witnesses and the burning bosoms. DNA enhances the criticism of all the anachronisms, unlikely battles, boats, and voyages.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

Zeezrom
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by Zeezrom » Sun Apr 24, 2022 3:43 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:18 pm
I recently heard someone (on Mormon Stories?) refer to the Lamanite DNA problem as "Mormonism's Galileo Movement," and decided to use that as the title for a paper I just wrote for a Philosophy of Religion class.

Graey's post about European plagues and Native Americans made me think someone here might like to read it. It's talks about about the crash of the Good Ship Zion with the DNA iceberg, and how the church could take advantage of a potential Galileo Moment to shed some apologetic fat. It borrows from my annotated response to the DNA essay, with a little more philosophy thrown in. And is MUCH shorter.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o9p8lc ... sp=sharing
Great Essay!!! Loved reading it!! Just one very minor correction is that the Viking colony was located in Newfoundland rather than Nova Scotia. It’s a very small factual error but apologists will use any misstatement to dismiss an entire argument.

Zeezrom
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by Zeezrom » Sun Apr 24, 2022 3:57 pm

One reason I think TSCC can’t use a Roman Catholic approach like with Galileo is that evidence of Joseph Smith’s fraud tears at the foundation of the church itself. The church has literally lost all its self-appointed priesthood authority once we accept Smith wasn’t 100% honest in his prophetic claims.

The RC church can weather any scandal or fraud from the last 1,900+ years as long as it doesn’t effect the legitimacy of St.Peter/Jesus Christ from where their foundational authority comes.

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Hagoth
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by Hagoth » Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:09 pm

Zeezrom wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 3:43 pm
Just one very minor correction is that the Viking colony was located in Newfoundland rather than Nova Scotia. It’s a very small factual error but
Damn it! Back to the drawing board! Thanks for the feedback, Z.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by Hagoth » Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:21 pm

Zeezrom wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 3:57 pm
One reason I think TSCC can’t use a Roman Catholic approach like with Galileo is that evidence of Joseph Smith’s fraud tears at the foundation of the church itself. The church has literally lost all its self-appointed priesthood authority once we accept Smith wasn’t 100% honest in his prophetic claims.

The RC church can weather any scandal or fraud from the last 1,900+ years as long as it doesn’t effect the legitimacy of St.Peter/Jesus Christ from where their foundational authority comes.
I think you're right. I wanted to try to show a potential path forward but I realize they would have to surrender their claims of being God's direct lightning rods. Of course, Galileo was not accepted by the Catholic church at first. He was consigned to house arrest and ordered to recant. Meanwhile, there are a growing number of Flat-Earthers today who insist the earth is in the center of the universe, bless their little hearts.

A generation from now the evidence against the church will have continued to pile up to the point that people will pretty much have to develop a Flat-Earther degree of self-delusion to believe in the Book of Mormon. I hope the official apologists will have gone the way of the dodo by then (nod to Jeffery).
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by jfro18 » Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:37 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:14 pm
moksha wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:13 am
So when do we get to hear you on Mormon Stories, or the more academic ones by Bill Reel and Radio Free Mormon?
I dunno. Nobody asked? Too introverted? I'll be the first guest on your podcast, Moksha.
The question is... would you go on Mormon Stories? That would be an interview I would love to hear!

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Hagoth
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by Hagoth » Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:46 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:37 pm
The question is... would you go on Mormon Stories? That would be an interview I would love to hear!
I would be fine doing an audio recording podcast but the live video broadcast format doesn't appeal to me, to be honest.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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blazerb
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by blazerb » Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:23 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:46 pm
I would be fine doing an audio recording podcast but the live video broadcast format doesn't appeal to me, to be honest.
I hope you do a podcast at some point. Frankly, the work you and jfro do could be its own podcast. You'd have years of material.

I saw someone over on reddit who mentioned to their bishop that they would not be allowed to read a gospel topics essay during sacrament meeting. The bishop asked why. The person started reading one of the polygamy essays and the bishop told them they were right, that could not be said during SM. I wonder about the DNA essay. If someone read it in SM, no one would wake up to object, probably. However, the picture of Lehite entry to the western hemisphere is so different from what we were taught, as you point out. However, if someone really heard what was being said, there would be some orthodox members who would be outraged. They've been sucked in to the Heartlander model and what not.

In short, the essays have created a Mormonism that is different from the traditional. Your essay does a good job pointing this out as well as pointing out the problems that the new narrative fails to resolve. I wonder what Benson would have said about the new narrative. Is the church still under condemnation in his alternate reality?

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moksha
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by moksha » Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:46 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:46 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:37 pm
The question is... would you go on Mormon Stories? That would be an interview I would love to hear!
I would be fine doing an audio recording podcast but the live video broadcast format doesn't appeal to me, to be honest.
So maybe not Mormonism Live. More of Mormon Stories or Radio Free Mormon.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by Hagoth » Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:27 pm

I think it would make sense if I had a website like Jfro, or a book or something, but I'm just another random voice. Maybe I should scrape all of the bits and pieces together into something.

I have also toyed with the idea of a book called A Book For Mormons to gently ease people into the problems via careful, reasoned thought, in a very friendly and positive way, and helping them to understand and how they can know if their leaders and apologists really have their best interests at heart. That probably can't be achieved as effectively as I would hope. I think it would be best told as a very personal story of how I encountered these things, what caused me to change my mind, and the kind of real and human emotional rollercoaster you go through. But then I think a friendly, light-hearted tone would be misinterpreted as manipulative and snarky. 'Cause that's how Satan works.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by moksha » Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:09 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:27 pm
I think it would make sense if I had a website like Jfro, or a book or something, but I'm just another random voice. Maybe I should scrape all of the bits and pieces together into something.

I have also toyed with the idea of a book called A Book For Mormons to gently ease people into the problems via careful, reasoned thought, in a very friendly and positive way, and helping them to understand and how they can know if their leaders and apologists really have their best interests at heart. That probably can't be achieved as effectively as I would hope. I think it would be best told as a very personal story of how I encountered these things, what caused me to change my mind, and the kind of real and human emotional rollercoaster you go through. But then I think a friendly, light-hearted tone would be misinterpreted as manipulative and snarky. 'Cause that's how Satan works.
Sounds great, but it would be a lot easier for us old people to listen to you on RFM. You've got so much good information to say and a very pleasing way of saying it.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:09 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:09 pm
Sounds great, but it would be a lot easier for us old people to listen to you on RFM. You've got so much good information to say and a very pleasing way of saying it.
That would be fun. I'll continue pacing the floor, waiting for him to call!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by moksha » Fri Apr 29, 2022 2:42 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:09 am
moksha wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:09 pm
Sounds great, but it would be a lot easier for us old people to listen to you on RFM. You've got so much good information to say and a very pleasing way of saying it.
That would be fun. I'll continue pacing the floor, waiting for him to call!
There is a need to be proactive. Feel like being bold? Maybe message Consiglieri on the Discuss Mormonism board and leave all your contact information. Having that info would increase his ability to call and make a pleasant episode happen.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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deacon blues
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by deacon blues » Mon May 09, 2022 11:42 am

The Gallileo moment may have it's origins at BYU in the early 1900's. BYU were professors fired for teaching evolution. The Church tries to defend itself, but the evidence continues to mount for DNA/Evolution. The Church leaders don't have the faith to make a bold anti-evolution statement, so they cautiously retreat. Occasionally someone like Pres. Nelson will lob a "explosion creates a watch" comment like a granade, but it doesn't affect the data, it only makes the TBM's feel reassured.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: Mormonism's Galileo Moment

Post by Hagoth » Tue May 10, 2022 11:19 am

deacon blues wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 11:42 am
Occasionally someone like Pres. Nelson will lob a "explosion creates a watch" comment like a granade, but it doesn't affect the data, it only makes the TBM's feel reassured.
They seem to always fall back on Paley's watch. It's a terrible argument, in my opinion. It is grossly oversimplified. Imagine a version where Paley sees his watch give birth to another watch. Show me a watch that can do the same things a bacterium can do and I will show you a watch that didn't need a watchmaker.

Nelson also gave us the "an explosion in a print shop can't make a dictionary" mike drop. As if any evolutionist had ever claimed anything remotely like that. It's no better than the creationist thought-stopper, "A dog can't give birth to a cat."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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