Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

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Zeezrom
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Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by Zeezrom » Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:51 pm

Just thinking back to my TBM days when I’d go on splits with the missionaries and an investigator brought up Joseph Smith and polygamy. The missionaries enthusiastically chimed in that Joseph didn’t want to do it but an angel with a flaming sword threatened to kill him if he didn’t.

It speaks to the mind numbing ability of a cult that this used to sound like a reasonable answer to me. Looking back I can’t believe the investigator didn’t bust a gut laughing.

Is this not the absolute dumbest excuse a man has ever given in history for sleeping around????

Can anyone even give me a close second in the dumbest excuse ever category??

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Hagoth
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:06 am

Zeezrom wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:51 pm
Can anyone even give me a close second in the dumbest excuse ever category??
That would also have to go to Joseph Smith. I have a book written on gold plates that has been waiting for thousands of years to be rediscovered, but you can't look at it because it has a death curse on it. Hmmm. A pattern?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jul 16, 2022 6:08 am

I take that back. That would have to be number three.

Number two would be that other thing missionaries tell investigators about the gold plates: the angel took them back.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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AllieOop
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by AllieOop » Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:54 am

Zeezrom wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:51 pm
Just thinking back to my TBM days when I’d go on splits with the missionaries and an investigator brought up Joseph Smith and polygamy. The missionaries enthusiastically chimed in that Joseph didn’t want to do it but an angel with a flaming sword threatened to kill him if he didn’t.

It speaks to the mind numbing ability of a cult that this used to sound like a reasonable answer to me. Looking back I can’t believe the investigator didn’t bust a gut laughing.

Is this not the absolute dumbest excuse a man has ever given in history for sleeping around????
It was actually a "drawn sword" in his original quotes (I believe someone added "flaming" years later).

However, there was an angel with a flaming sword who supposedly guarded the tree of life ;)

What is really crazy is that Joseph was already living the principle (he had at least 18 wives at that point) and had restored it when he used this to get I believe Zina Huntington (iirc) to marry him. So we are to believe than an angel appeared and threatened him with destruction after he was already willingly living polygamy?
Crazy, but some fell for it and married him.
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."

Zeezrom
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by Zeezrom » Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:16 am

Why does an angel need a sword to destroy someone anyway?? Lol I guess having a sword and omnipotent priesthood power is better than just omnipotent priesthood power.

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wtfluff
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:29 pm

Sorry folks, but we're skirting the real question here.

Drawn sword, flaming sword, dagger, pocket-knife. Who cares?


Did Joseph ask the angel to shake his hand?!?!?! - THAT is the question we should be asking. :ugeek:



Zeezrom wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:51 pm
Can anyone even give me a close second in the dumbest excuse ever category??
I guess hand-shaking ghosts is not a dumb excuse, just one of my favorite "dumb MORmON things" in general. Of course if I do ever see a ghost/angel, I'm definitely going to give it the hand-shake test. DEFINITELY.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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moksha
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by moksha » Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:50 am

They faced each other down on the streets of Kirkland. The Angel had a determined look, but Joseph's eyes were brimming over with both fidelity for Emma and a burning itch best not to describe in polite company. The Angel spoke first, "It's your choice, Joseph". Joseph squinted and replied, "Draw, Angel".
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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deacon blues
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by deacon blues » Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:29 pm

moksha wrote:
Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:50 am
They faced each other down on the streets of Kirkland. The Angel had a determined look, but Joseph's eyes were brimming over with both fidelity for Emma and a burning itch best not to describe in polite company. The Angel spoke first, "It's your choice, Joseph". Joseph squinted and replied, "Draw, Angel".
Dang this is funny pardner! :lol:
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:27 am

I love how the angel just didn't have quite enough enthusiasm to actually appear to the person who needed to be persuaded, but only to the guy who benefitted from it.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Zeezrom
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by Zeezrom » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:36 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:27 am
I love how the angel just didn't have quite enough enthusiasm to actually appear to the person who needed to be persuaded, but only to the guy who benefitted from it.
This ^^^^^

Gatorbait
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by Gatorbait » Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:13 am

It was actually a "drawn sword" in his original quotes (I believe someone added "flaming" years later).

However, there was an angel with a flaming sword who supposedly guarded the tree of life ;)



Angels and swords- that's a hoot- but it is easy to tell the difference between the two angels.

1. Tree angel, light on his feet cause he has to sit in a tree all day. No eye brows, as the flaming sword burns them off.

2. Drawn sword angel, at the ready whenever Jos. Smith wanted a new girl friend and she said no. This angel is difficult to pick out because he never existed in the first place unlike Jos. Smith's oversized sex drive.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

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Jeffret
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by Jeffret » Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:24 am

In "Good Omens" (book by Pratchett and Gaimain, and later Amazon Video series) we learn the history of the angel with the flaming sword from the Garden of Eden, Aziraphale. In their retelling of it, the story is a little bit different from what actually shows up in the Bible.
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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stealthbishop
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:41 pm

It's so crazy to realize that I would not have even thought twice about this back in the day. BUT, (for many of us) when you are inside the pill bottle it's difficult to read the label.
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Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

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Hagoth
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by Hagoth » Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:06 am

I have always wondered why Swordy McAngel didn't show up at Haun's Mill, or to lead Zion's Camp to victory instead of failure, or someplace where the suffering saints really needed divine help in a way that was more urgent than ensuring that Brother Joseph was getting enough teen action.

Is it too harsh to suggest that the sword-bearing angel was to joseph smith what the roofie was to Bill Cosby?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by jfro18 » Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:42 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:06 am
I have always wondered why Swordy McAngel didn't show up at Haun's Mill, or to lead Zion's Camp to victory instead of failure, or someplace where the suffering saints really needed divine help in a way that was more urgent than ensuring that Brother Joseph was getting enough teen action.
Isn't that really the easiest way to know it's all BS? The fact is that God has the ability to send an angel with a drawn sword to help Joseph get young brides, yet can't be bothered to help the church from the mobs... tell them to boil water... etc.
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:06 am
Is it too harsh to suggest that the sword-bearing angel was to joseph smith what the roofie was to Bill Cosby?
It's really not... we just recorded the Happiness Letter episode yesterday and I was about to lose it going through the wording Joseph uses to try and coerce Nancy Rigdon. The angel with a drawn sword story is the same thing and Joseph only pulls the story out when women reject him which is even more abhorrent.

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moksha
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by moksha » Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:13 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:06 am
Is it too harsh to suggest that the sword-bearing angel was to joseph smith what the roofie was to Bill Cosby?
The future spirit of Sigmund Freud could have appeared to Joseph and told him "to follow his banana".
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by Hagoth » Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:02 am

The overwhelmingly obvious weakness to this story, of course, is that the angel never appeared to the girls themselves. It' has the same legitimacy as a guy walking up to you in the street and saying, "the police said you have to give me all of your money or they will send me to the electric chair."

ETA: this scenario is actually far more likely because the police and the electric chair actually exist.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by jfro18 » Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:50 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 7:02 am
The overwhelmingly obvious weakness to this story, of course, is that the angel never appeared to the girls themselves. It' has the same legitimacy as a guy walking up to you in the street and saying, "the police said you have to give me all of your money or they will send me to the electric chair."

ETA: this scenario is actually far more likely because the police and the electric chair actually exist.
Absolutely and I will be using this analogy on Mormon Stories when we get to it because the example is a brilliant way to how nonsensical the story is.

I cannot believe people defend this... it's one of the most transparently awful tactics you'll ever see.

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deacon blues
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Re: Joseph Smith and the curse of the flaming sword

Post by deacon blues » Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:46 am

Considering some of the crazy dreams I have had, I think think it's entirely possible that Joseph DREAMED about an angel with a drawn sword. Add to this the explanations, particularly in 1st Nephi, that dreams and visions are the same thing, and we have a case for a 'pious fraud' Joseph telling this story.
Heck, maybe that's what made the Lafferty Bros. do the crazy things they did-- DREAMS.
I don't get why LDS cling to angel stories like this? :shock: :o :o
The least they could do is say, "Well I might be wrong." or "It might have been a dream." 8-)
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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