Losing our Eternal Families

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
Post Reply
User avatar
græy
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:52 pm
Location: Central TX

Losing our Eternal Families

Post by græy » Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:39 am

I was recently listening to an old Mormon Expression podcast where the group discusses D&C 19. Specifically versus 6-12...
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
The trick here is that "endless torment" does not really mean being tormented forever into eternity with no end in sight, ever. Its just a way of saying "God's torment" or "God's punishment" because God himself is eternal and "Eternal" or "Endless" is another one of his names.

Fine. Whatever. Mormonism redefines words all the time so why should this be any different.

On the other hand, does this words-have-no-meaning-or-value-at-all thing have wider implications? What about eternal life? Eternal salvation? Eternal families? Are those things still "eternal" in the traditional (real) sense of the word? If so, how do we know? How do we know that the fake eternal only applies to punishment and not reward? If we accept D&C 19 at its face value, then we have no guarantee that anything with respect to the Mormon gospel will last beyond... I don't know when, but certainly not into eternity.

What are we doing this all for again?
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 3769
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Losing our Eternal Families

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:46 am

Link to the podcast?

I’m about to go into a meeting but want to come back to this post later.
“I switched baristas” —Lady Gaga

Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
græy
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:52 pm
Location: Central TX

Re: Losing our Eternal Families

Post by græy » Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:57 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:46 am
Link to the podcast?

I’m about to go into a meeting but want to come back to this post later.
Its Mormon Expression episode 158

Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cH ... HQAAAAAQPA

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/1 ... 0535247840
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

User avatar
stealthbishop
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:25 am

Re: Losing our Eternal Families

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:04 am

Wow, I never looked at it from the other side with regards to what LDS people would consider eternally positive things such as being sealed together as a couple or family. Whoa!
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

User avatar
Ghost
Posts: 333
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:40 pm

Re: Losing our Eternal Families

Post by Ghost » Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:36 pm

I remember thinking about Section 19 as a missionary and realizing that's why it made sense to say "the immortality and eternal life of man" but I didn't think to extend it to "eternal" families. That one may be more difficult to pin down language-wise because there's so much less mention of it in scripture.

User avatar
Not Buying It
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: Losing our Eternal Families

Post by Not Buying It » Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:10 am

What does an eternal family even look like? A man and one or more women, sure. But you aren't gonna be living in a house with your kids - and their kids, and their kids' kids, and on and on ad infinitum. People picture it as being with with spouse(s) and kids, but the kids will have families of their own. The whole idea breaks down pretty fast when you think about it.

But then I will always say that the fact that Joseph got sealed to 22 women before his wife, and never bothered getting sealed to his children, tells you everything you need to know about the legitimacy of "families are forever".
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 6286
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Losing our Eternal Families

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:19 am

Sorry for the detour, but I can't even think of Section 19 in any serious doctrinal sense. For me it is among the phoniest of all phony, manipulative D&C revelations, right up there with God threatening to destroy Emma for not being happy about Joseph's sexual misbehavior and God telling the saints in Nauvoo to stop building the temple for a while so they can build a hotel for the Smith family.

Joseph "received" this "revelation" after Martin Harris read the description of a literal Hell in some of the unbound pages of the Book of Mormon. Martin was a universalist and was very distraught to learn that there is a literal lake of fire and brimstone. The resulting revelation is about as transparent as can be imagined:
D&C 19:13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

26 And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the word of God

33 And misery thou shalt receive if thou wilt slight these counsels, yea, even the destruction of thyself and property.

34 Impart a portion of thy property, yea, even part of thy lands, and all save the support of thy family.

35 Pay the debt thou hast contracted with the printer. Release thyself from bondage.
The real crown in this jewel is when God suggests that he inspired the authors of his scriptures to lie about Hell as a scare tactic, "that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men,"

So God reassures Martin that Hell is not eternal, but threatens him with the worst punishments of that same non-eternal hell if he doesn't fork over the cash. :roll:
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 6286
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Losing our Eternal Families

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:30 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:10 am
What does an eternal family even look like? A man and one or more women, sure. But you aren't gonna be living in a house with your kids - and their kids, and their kids' kids, and on and on ad infinitum. People picture it as being with with spouse(s) and kids, but the kids will have families of their own. The whole idea breaks down pretty fast when you think about it.
And the more temple work we do the more meaningless it becomes. When all of the sealing is done you are sealed into your parents' family, your spouse is sealed into her parents', and they're sealed into their parents' families, etc. etc, and it all becomes a big, homogenous gray soup, exactly the same as if no one had been sealed to anyone. Now we're discussing whether Mormon doctrine even supports the timespan of that soup. It seems like the only way for a church to be true is to make no claims and proclaim no doctrine. That would be just as valuable as a bunch of inconsistent made-up goop.

Let's put our heads together and start The Church of Nothing (the only true church)
Image
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
græy
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:52 pm
Location: Central TX

Re: Losing our Eternal Families

Post by græy » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:19 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:30 am
Let's put our heads together and start The Church of Nothing (the only true church)
I'm in!
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 4466
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Losing our Eternal Families

Post by moksha » Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:36 pm

Just imagine Adam and Eve booking the leisure planet of Risa for the week of July 24th for a family reunion. 12 billion fun seekers sewing quilts and other stuff. You can count on Joseph Smith being there with his horga'hn.



Emma Smith and the Holy Magic song from the Sunstone Symposium:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrqlCOgejEQ
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 4466
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Losing our Eternal Families

Post by moksha » Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:10 pm

Image
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests