The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

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deacon blues
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The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by deacon blues » Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:59 am

As I understand it, the Q-15 has a "safety net, in addition to the "God would take/destroy a disobedient prophet" idea that has been often referred to.One man, even the 'prophet' couldn't lead the Church astray because to do anything radical, he (always a he :? ) would have to get the other 14 guys to agree.
If the Church had a crisis how effective is this system in the 'real world?' Practically speaking, could a charismatic prophet overrule significant opposition by the other 14, or a clique of them?
Did it happen in 1890, as fundamentalists believe?
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Just This Guy
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:38 pm

From the sounds of it, a charismatic person forcing through their ideas is how we got the PoX (Policy of eXclusion) in Nov. '15. The rumors are that they didn't have enough support in the Q15, but RMN slipped it in the CHoI anyway. Once it leaked out that it was there any it exploded in their faces, RMN than doubled down by calling it revelation. Several of the Q15 shared with their families they did not support it.

It took a few years for other Members to gather and then vote to rescind the PoX.
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Hagoth
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:01 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:38 pm
Several of the Q15 shared with their families they did not support it.
But only with their families! No one stood up against it.

The biggest hurdle they would have to overcome is that their entire existence revolves around the idea of honoring oaths that they have sworn to the church and to superior priesthood holders. Hugh B. Brown admitted that apostles swear an apostolic oath (I like to imagine that it retains the masonic blood-spilling gestures) that if their vote turns out to be in the minority, they will not only change their vote to agree with the majority, but will then behave as if they had always been in agreement. Add to this that the voting starts with the prophet and then goes down the ranks from most senior to most junior. The oldest-timers at the top are likely to be the most conservative, then the guys chomping at the bit to get into those shoes, and finally the young guys, who are most likely to have fresh ideas, but also most likely to cave when they realize the vote has already been determined by the time it comes around to them, and it's better just to go along than to swim upstream knowing that you're just going to have to bow your head and change your vote anyway because you are oath-bound to do so.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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deacon blues
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by deacon blues » Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:43 pm

I’ve long suspected an apostolic oath. Dallin Oaks refers to it in an interview. It is probably TOP secret. How could we learn more about it? Is it in a Hugh Brown biography?
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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alas
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by alas » Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:27 pm

That necessity to all be in agreement is more likely to stop some needed update than it is to prevent one person leading the rest of them astray, or maybe better put it will just help them stay astray in all the traditions of men that they embrace. The 1978 revelation to give blacks priesthood & temple was blocked for years by one holdout. Think if it is likely for Oaks to give in on LGBT issues, no matter what the other 14 might believe. What would it take for Bednar to agree to give women priesthood? Yet, one man can push through something that they don’t care about near as much as he does, such as Nelson pushing through “Don’t say Mormon.” Or, “only one pair of earrings.” So, one can easily take them astray on stuff they don’t have strong prejudices about, but it would take a category 47 Hurricane to move some of them on their pet issues about how to hate people. Nope, on some issues, the agreement thing will just stand in the way of progress, but it won’t dent the tendency to run head first into stupidity like the Policy of exclusion, or picky details like number of earrings

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Just This Guy
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:20 am

deacon blues wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:43 pm
I’ve long suspected an apostolic oath. Dallin Oaks refers to it in an interview. It is probably TOP secret. How could we learn more about it? Is it in a Hugh Brown biography?
Radio Free Mormon talks about the "Apostolic Charge" in a couple of his episodes. That is the agreement that the Q15 have that once they vote on something, even if they don't agree with it, they will always publicly say they support it. I remember one episode where he dives into the history and origins of it.

I think RFM episode 35 is where he dives into it.

https://radiofreemormon.org/2021/08/mor ... -stand-up/
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by moksha » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:12 pm

I think there is a contingency plan to build an impenetrable Fortress/Temple on the island of Tonga for the Brethren and their families to abide during times of upheaval, such as the bulk of the saintly membership embracing Trump as the new QAnon Messiah (please keep this a secret).
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by 2bizE » Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:07 pm

moksha wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:12 pm
I think there is a contingency plan to build an impenetrable Fortress/Temple on the island of Tonga for the Brethren and their families to abide during times of upheaval, such as the bulk of the saintly membership embracing Trump as the new QAnon Messiah (please keep this a secret).
Probably in Midway Utah rather than Tonga, but it probably is super Mormon secret, which means it really isn’t a secret…
~2bizE

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blazerb
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by blazerb » Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:20 pm

There must some sort of hold that the senior leaders have over those just called. A while back, I wondered what trouble Elder Gong could get into if the world saw the picture with his son and his son's significant other (Are they married? I do not remember.). I'm trying to imagine what sort of consequences would make me embarrassed to be seen with my children. I have no idea. It makes no sense unless there is some sort of control imposed on the new members if they don't toe the line.

In short, I'm not sure that there really are 14 other guys that the prophet has to convince. I'll be there are some key leaders that have influence.

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Hagoth
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:48 am

It seems to me that prophets have lead the church astray over and over again. The church reframes it as "speaking as a man," but those prophets often behaved as if, and even outright claimed, they were speaking for God. In the case of Brigham Young, he proclaimed that your eternals salvation was at stake if you didn't believe him.

I would say leading the church astray is the rule, not the exception.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by deacon blues » Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:59 am

I found the Hugh B. Brown Biography and found this on the Apostolic Charge:
Hugh B. Brown: Later, the president (David O. McKay) gave me what is known as the "charge to the apostles." That charge included a commitment to give all that one has, both as to time and means, to the building of the Kingdom of God; to keep himself pure and unspotted from the sins of the world; to be obedient to the authorities of the church; and to exercise the freedom to speak his mind but always be willing to subjugate his own thoughts and accept the majority opinion—not only to vote for it but to act as though it were his own original opinion after it has been approved by the majority of the Council of the Twelve and the First Presidency." (Edwin B. Firmage, An Abundant Life, p. 126-27.)

And some other interesting quotes:
Hugh B. Brown: "The few years I spent as an assistant to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were some of the most profitable of my life. The one lesson I tried most to learn was humility.
When one is out speaking, representing the church, he is eulogized— almost idolized. What he says is taken as gospel, what he does is seen as an example to all. It places one, in other words, in the spotlight, makes one feel he is in a fishbowl and is looked upon by all who pass. Sometimes men in such positions are inclined to think that they themselves are the object of this adulation when, in fact, what people are doing is indicating their respect for the authority of the office and the appointment one has received. If we can keep in mind this fact and never abrogate to ourselves the honor which belongs to the office, we will be safe.
Unfortunately, my own experience has been that a number of the brethren never learned this lesson, instead becoming proud of the fact that they received an appointment which seemed to entitle them to the adulation of people. Sometimes they even gave evidence of the feeling that they, not their office, formed the object of an adulation which, in my opinion, should be reserved to deity."
(Edwin B. Firmage, An Abundant Life, p.123)

Hugh B. Brown: " Although there are certain statements that whatever the brethren say becomes the word of God, this is a dangerous practice to apply to all leaders and all cases. The only way I know of by which the teachings of any person or group may become binding upon the church is if the teachings have been reviewed by all the brethren, submitted to the highest councils of the church, and then approved by the whole body of the church.
I am afraid, however, that this is not as generally accepted or followed today as it ought to be. Some of the brethren have been willing to submit to the inference that what they have said was pronounced under the influence of the inspiration of the Lord and that it therefore was the will of the Lord. I do not doubt that the brethren have often spoken under inspiration and given new emphasis— perhaps even a new explanation or interpretation—of church doctrine, but that does not become binding upon the church unless and until it is submitted to the scrutiny of the rest of the brethren and later to the vote of the people. Again, we are only bound by the four standard works and are not required to defend what any man or woman says outside of them.
(Edwin B. Firmage, An Abundant Life, p.124)

Hugh B. Brown: "There is not enough of the attitude of the sincere investigator among us. When we come into a new field of research that will challenge our due and honest consideration, we should be warned against coming too quickly to a conclusion, of forming a decision too hastily. We should be scientific—that is, open—minded, approaching new problems without prejudice, deferring a decision until all the facts are in.
"Some say that the open—minded leave room for doubt. But I believe we should doubt some of the things we hear. Doubt has a place if it can stir in one an interest to go out and find the truth for one's self. I should like to awaken in everyone a desire to investigate, to make an independent study of religion, and to know for themselves whether or not the teachings of the Mormon church are true." (Edwin B. Firmage, An Abundant Life, p. 134-35)


These candid observations by an apostle may shed some light on how things operate inside the inner circle.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:22 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:59 am
These candid observations by an apostle may shed some light on how things operate inside the inner circle.
Thank you so much, Deacon! These are priceless.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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A New Name
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by A New Name » Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:00 pm

I believe the church is a "corporate sole", where the CEO/Prophet has sole authority as far as the business of the church goes. Rusty could theoretically decide to turn all the chapels into homeless shelters and there is nothing the Q15 could do.

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Hagoth
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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:25 am

A New Name wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:00 pm
I believe the church is a "corporate sole", where the CEO/Prophet has sole authority as far as the business of the church goes. Rusty could theoretically decide to turn all the chapels into homeless shelters and there is nothing the Q15 could do.
But if he did make such a decision he would call upon the sacred apostolic charge to humble them into behaving as if they were all in agreement. I can't imagine that he would every do anything so remotely Christ-like as caring for the homeless, so I'm hoping his body outlives his rational brain long enough to do something so absolutely over-the-top wacky that it really tests his cronies' loyalty. Like having himself crowned King of the World, or bringing back animal sacrifice, or having UFO landing pads installed on top of the temples, or assigning a Bigfoot task force to capture and interrogate Cain.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: The Q-15 has a safety net. How would it work in a crisis?

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:25 pm

blazerb wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:20 pm
There must some sort of hold that the senior leaders have over those just called. A while back, I wondered what trouble Elder Gong could get into if the world saw the picture with his son and his son's significant other (Are they married? I do not remember.). I'm trying to imagine what sort of consequences would make me embarrassed to be seen with my children. I have no idea. It makes no sense unless there is some sort of control imposed on the new members if they don't toe the line.

In short, I'm not sure that there really are 14 other guys that the prophet has to convince. I'll be there are some key leaders that have influence.
I think that this is a very real issue. Seniority matters in the Q15. I think the senior apostles carry significantly more weight in the decision making and structurally and orally the message is sent that if you are a junior member of the Q15 you are to sit back and observe and do as you are told. You still have a vote when it comes down to a vote but not a lot of influence.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

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