Tokens and Penalties

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Hagoth
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Tokens and Penalties

Post by Hagoth » Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:39 pm

OK, they removed the penalties from the endowment in 1990. So, those going through for themselves don't have to submit to them anymore. BUT, you only do your own endowment once and then the next million temple visits are done in proxy for ghosts, most of whom died before 1990. Shouldn't they be obligated to endure, albeit remotely, the pre-1990 version?

But wait, they're dead, so swearing an oath not to tell the secrets lest their life be taken makes no sense. So, why did I have to make that oath vicariously for them when I was doing endowments for the dead pre-1990? And who is a ghost going to reveal them to anyway? Another ghost? Joseph Smith taught us that ghosts can't do handshakes.

Finally, how do I make my brain stop torturing me over stupid stuff like this?

Oh, one more. Are the ghosts of Homo erectus capable of doing the signs and tokens, and capable of staying on covenant path?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: Tokens and Penalties

Post by wtfluff » Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:43 pm

Image

Probably because it's about ghosts (BOO!) And ghostly handshake "tests" and other ghostly stuff. I think most folks here know I have a "thing" for ghosts.

And... I wish I could turn the MORmON part of my brain off too. :? At least I can enjoy the Cognitive Dissonance now and learn from it, instead of being afraid of it.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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nibbler
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Re: Tokens and Penalties

Post by nibbler » Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:10 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 7:39 pm
But wait, they're dead, so swearing an oath not to tell the secrets lest their life be taken makes no sense. So, why did I have to make that oath vicariously for them when I was doing endowments for the dead pre-1990?
Silly you. You get killed if the ghost blabs.

The more vicarious endowment sessions you did, the more risk you opened yourself up to.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

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Hagoth
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Re: Tokens and Penalties

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:13 pm

nibbler wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:10 am

Silly you. You get killed if the ghost blabs.

The more vicarious endowment sessions you did, the more risk you opened yourself up to.
Image
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: Tokens and Penalties

Post by deacon blues » Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:17 am

Dear TBM's, have you really looked at this temple thing without bias?!?! :roll:
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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alas
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Re: Tokens and Penalties

Post by alas » Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:06 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 8:17 am
Dear TBM's, have you really looked at this temple thing without bias?!?! :roll:
I know my first time through, 1971, I was worse than shocked. Horrified is closer to what I felt. The “don’t tell this secret or your life will be forfeit ….that is the stuff of Gadianton Robbers. How is this *not* a secret combination? And it was/is so sexist. Women are not “children” of God. They do not inherit anything in their own name. They get to share in their husband’s inheritance. Women are not children, but only daughters in law. I mean, I saw the preference given the boys as I was growing up, but the temple ceremony really explained that women were nothing to God, only through their husband who was to be their god.

Some of the wording has changed, but I bet that underlying premise has not.

So, the Mormon God isn’t my God and until my husband is promoted to godhood, I don’t have a god. OK, fine. I don’t have to listen to the prophet of somebody else’s god.

I really don’t think my testimony ever recovered.

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Hagoth
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Re: Tokens and Penalties

Post by Hagoth » Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:14 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:06 pm
How is this *not* a secret combination? And it was/is so sexist.
No kidding!

And then they warn you about not selling your signs and tokens for money, right after you were required to declare yourself a full tithe payer, knowing that without that exchange of money you would not have been found "worthy" to receive the signs and tokens. :?

My reaction to my first temple experience (besides being physically ill with a pounding headache) was that it seemed to be the exact kind of ritualistic gobbledygook they used to make fun of in other churches: stand up, sit down, repeat after me, genuflect, adjust your ceremonial robes, repeat some words in a language you don't understand (Pay Lay El)... I had been taught that I was going to the temple to actually learn something (I was specifically promised that I would learn how to create planets!), not just to do the hokey pokey.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: Tokens and Penalties

Post by alas » Sat Oct 22, 2022 7:14 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:14 pm
alas wrote:
Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:06 pm
How is this *not* a secret combination? And it was/is so sexist.
No kidding!

And then they warn you about not selling your signs and tokens for money, right after you were required to declare yourself a full tithe payer, knowing that without that exchange of money you would not have been found "worthy" to receive the signs and tokens. :?

My reaction to my first temple experience (besides being physically ill with a pounding headache) was that it seemed to be the exact kind of ritualistic gobbledygook they used to make fun of in other churches: stand up, sit down, repeat after me, genuflect, adjust your ceremonial robes, repeat some words in a language you don't understand (Pay Lay El)... I had been taught that I was going to the temple to actually learn something (I was specifically promised that I would learn how to create planets!), not just to do the hokey pokey.
Yes, and *while* they are doing the gobbledygook that they make fun of other churches for, they have this guy with a clerical collar that they are making fun of right there with him and Satan watching the gobbledygook. And they make fun of his clerical collar while dressed in bakers hats with Greek type robes over top of regular clothing on top of funny underwear. If I hadn’t been so horrified, I would have been rolling in the isle laughing, being oh so careful to stay on my female side of the isle.

And funny, but I still get a twang of guilt in talking about how silly it really is.

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