Original Doctrines

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felixfabulous
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Original Doctrines

Post by felixfabulous » Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:53 pm

Rick Bennett has a fascinating interview on the gospel tangents podcast with Joe Jessup who grew up in the United Apostolic Brethren (Allred Polygamous Group) and converted to the LDS Church. He gives the history of the various groups and gets into the doctrine. This won't be news to anyone on here, but after polygamy really ended, we did a huge doctrinal overhaul and have really pared so much of the Nauvoo doctrine. It's interesting to hear from people who have kept these going and rejected those changes. Here are a few that stood out:

Adam/God: This is a major tenet of their faith and something regularly discussed in sacrament talks and priesthood lessons. I think most people do not understand Adam/God because it has not been properly explained to them. It seems totally nonsensical that Michael in the temple would be talking to himself as Elohim. It took me a long time to wrap my head around it. I do not personally believe it, but it makes much more sense in terms of larger Mormon doctrine than our current view. What clicked for me was understanding that in the modern Godhead we have God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. In the temple, we have a different Godhead, with Michael subbing in for the Holy Ghost. Why? Well, in the original theology, Elohim was not God the Father and Jehovah was not Jesus. Michael was God the Father, Jehovah was his father and Elohim represented plural former generations, like grandfather and great grandfather (Elohim is plural). The story of Michael/Adam was the story of our Heavenly Father who had to complete his final task of becoming a God and bringing one of his wives to populate the earth. They are our spirit parents (literally) and our physical parents as we all are their offspring. I had understood that Jesus was the first born spirit son of Adam and Eve, but in this interview he emphasizes that Mary was another one of Adam's wives who came to earth just to give birth to Jesus. Still not sure on that, but the rest makes sense to me. To become a God of our own planet, we need to go through the full cycle, becoming a Christ then an Adam with our own planet, etc. But, generally, in this doctrine there was no mystery about Heavenly Mother and this is the reason the Church doesn't want to say anything about her is because we want to stay as far away from this doctrine as we can. They know it as the Adam God Doctrine where we have used the name Adam God Theory to make it seem speculative and really out there.

Polygamy: In this interview, he says that the main reason to practice polygamy is to practice ruling over a small kingdom in mortality to practice becoming a God over our own planet in eternity. He said that children and sexual desires were secondary. Again, I don't agree with that, but it makes a lot of sense in the context of Adam/God and generations of Gods. I think JS was horny, but he was also trying to reestablish much more of an OT clan based family system.

Priesthood: The polygamous view of priesthood is much closer to our former view and again makes more sense in this context. You are a priesthood head of the family and household and it's much more of a patriarchal role like the Old Testament leaders of clans. This makes sense if you are practicing governing, like a feudal system with lords and barons. In fact, it is not unlike the way people viewed royalty. You are either royal or you aren't and saying that everyone is royal is going to piss off the royals who thought they were special.

There is also a big emphasis on lineage and birthrights. We had all of these things that collapsed doctrinally when the priesthood ban ended. The UAB sees the ending of the priesthood ban as the LDS Church losing it's priesthood. They also view the LDS Church as the Church and them as the priesthood, since priesthood were so tied to polygamy, the LDS Church had some after it abandoned polygamy, but lost all of it when the priesthood ban ended. The UAB view is that the two (priesthood and church) will eventually be reunited. The emphasis on lineage and the curse of Cain and who gets the priesthood when are huge doctrinal pillars for them. Joe Jessup said this was his major hesitation in joining the LDS Church. Again, I don't agree with this, but when I grew up in the 80s, we still believed all these things and had a similar view, even believing that the priesthood ban was divine and fitting it into this context. I remember hearing about the Levites being the first to have it and the blacks last. Since we've changed our doctrine on this and tried to give women some kind of role in priesthood, this doctrine has really started to fade.

These are all doctrines that seem weird to the larger Christian world and things we are slowly abandoning as we try to gain acceptance from American Christianity. It was interesting to hear what had already been given up and also to realize that priesthood had totally shifted in my lifetime.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:49 am

Fabulous post Felix!

Episode 710 for those interested. Going to give this a listen over the next few days.

https://gospeltangents.com/gospel-tange ... odes-list/
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felixfabulous
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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by felixfabulous » Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:50 am

Love the word play and thanks for the props. I'll be interested to hear your reactions to the podcast.

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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by Hagoth » Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:44 pm

This is fascinating, Felix. What you described is what I understand the Brigham Young era concept of the godhead to be. I have always had a little trouble figuring out how much of that was fully developed by Joseph Smith and passed on to Brigham and how much was embellishment by Brigham. Do you think Joseph Smith understood it in exactly the same way? I get the impression he was still experimenting with ideas when he created the temple endowment, then Brigham tied a neat little bow around it.

BTW, I have always misread your name, and in my mind I was calling you Flexifabulous! You gotta admit, it's got a ring to it.
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felixfabulous
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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by felixfabulous » Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:43 pm

Flex-if-Fabulous does have a great ring! I agree this is definitely Brigham era godhead, but seems to be what Joseph was experimenting with at the end of his life in Nauvoo and jives with the King Follett Discourse. I will have to talk to my friend again, but several years ago, a friend who worked in the Church historical department and had access to some restricted writings of Wilford Woodruff said he saw notes that Joseph taught him about becoming a God by being a Christ and an Adam, etc. I would guess Joseph threw some of those ideas out there and Brigham tied it all together, as you said.

There is a great Sunstone article you've probably read by Boyd Kirkland about the changing role of Jehovah and how identifying him with Jesus was really formalized around the time the Church was transitioning out of polygamy. I know Joseph F. Smith was hesitant to canonize the King Follett discourse and gave some BS reasons (like there were three different transcripts out there), I would imagine it had a lot to do with getting away from this theology and transitioning into the modern concept of Jehovah being Jesus as we tried to assimilate into more mainstream Christianity. Jesus the Christ seems to have been the final word on this, complete with the lore I heard as a missionary that Jesus himself proofread the book and gave his approval to James E. Talmage. Too bad he didn't write the introduction!

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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by Hagoth » Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:46 pm

felixfabulous wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:43 pm
...writings of Wilford Woodruff said he saw notes that Joseph taught him about becoming a God by being a Christ and an Adam, etc. I would guess Joseph threw some of those ideas out there and Brigham tied it all together, as you said.
I have heard this concept referred to as Multiple Probations.
felixfabulous wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:43 pm
I heard as a missionary that Jesus himself proofread the book and gave his approval to James E. Talmage. Too bad he didn't write the introduction!
I hadn't heard that, but it sounds right on track. I once got a special behind-the-scenes tour of the SL temple by a sealer who took me to a spot above the Holy of Holies (if I remember correctly) and told that was where Talmage wrote Jesus the Christ. He spoke about it with such awe and reverence I suspect that he was familiar with that story.

I love the image of Jesus with reading glasses and a red pencil correcting Talmage's grammar. I imagine only a hundredth part of Jesus editorial additions made into the final text for lack of room.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by wtfluff » Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:17 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:46 pm
...
I hadn't heard that, but it sounds right on track. I once got a special behind-the-scenes tour of the SL temple by a sealer who took me to a spot above the Holy of Holies (if I remember correctly) and told that was where Talmage wrote Jesus the Christ. He spoke about it with such awe and reverence I suspect that he was familiar with that story.
...
The room above the Holy of Hollies is the "Dome Room" which I also think is a dressing room for the Q15, or the 70's or??? The dome above the Holly of Holies has stained glass windows in it.
Image



The "Talmage Room" was on the east side of the temple If I was told correctly. A small, almost "hidden" room. I wonder if the Talmage Room had separate ventilation, and if The Big Guy himself participated with Talmage in his herbal supplementation whilst proof-reading? :mrgreen:

https://askgramps.org/james-e-talmage-l ... us-christ/
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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by Hagoth » Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:49 am

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:17 pm
The room above the Holy of Hollies is the "Dome Room" which I also think is a dressing room for the Q15, or the 70's or??? The dome above the Holly of Holies has stained glass windows in it.
That's right! I remember the dome! It's been a couple of decades. Our tour guide also pointed out where Jesus appeared to Lorenzo.

I wonder what is the weirdest thing that has ever happened in that building. I'm guessing pretty weird. Do you think any of so-called-prophets have actually tried the hat-rock trick in the holy of holies? I know they used to do magical stuff with dowsing rods. It also got pretty masonic in the old days, judging by the masonic sword shown in one of the early unauthorized photos. I'm sure I've mentioned this, but James E. Faust's nephew told me his uncle spotted that sword inside the H of H when the door was ajar and mistook it for the sword of Laban.
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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by wtfluff » Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:50 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 5:49 am
That's right! I remember the dome! It's been a couple of decades. Our tour guide also pointed out where Jesus appeared to Lorenzo.

I wonder what is the weirdest thing that has ever happened in that building. I'm guessing pretty weird. Do you think any of so-called-prophets have actually tried the hat-rock trick in the holy of holies? I know they used to do magical stuff with dowsing rods. It also got pretty masonic in the old days, judging by the masonic sword shown in one of the early unauthorized photos. I'm sure I've mentioned this, but James E. Faust's nephew told me his uncle spotted that sword inside the H of H when the door was ajar and mistook it for the sword of Laban.
The Urban Legends surrounding the SL temple, and other "Holy" buildings and places surrounding Salt Lake City are as innumerable as the sands of the seashore. The weirdest thing that has happened in the temple is likely beyond my fluffy imagination. I'm not sure I want to know all of the weirdness that has happened in that building.

I sure hope that one if not many of the so-called-prophets has tried to use the Magick Rock™. I mean, if there is any truthfulness at all related with MORmONism, that rock is the most important religious artifact in the universe. If they truly believe, they should be parading the Magick Rock™ around the world to prove how important it is. (The fact that they have the Magick Rock™ in their possession and still do everything in their power to hide it speaks volumes to me: They don't believe the BS.)

And the Sword of Laban? Uncle Faust must have been partaking in Talmage's herb when he saw the Sword in the H of H - EVERYONE knows Laban's (flaming?) Sword resides in the F-Vault up Little Cottonwood canyon. :ugeek: :twisted: :mrgreen:
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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by felixfabulous » Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:35 pm

I'd never seen that photo of the dome, very cool.

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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by Hagoth » Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:39 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 11:50 am
...that rock is the most important religious artifact in the universe. If they truly believe, they should be parading the Magick Rock™ around the world to prove how important it is.
They have also made no effort to display the only document written by the hand of an ancient prophet, and THE patriarch of all western religion at that.

Why do we have a mall next to the temple instead of a museum displaying the most important artifacts in the history of the world?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by wtfluff » Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:50 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:39 pm
They have also made no effort to display the only document written by the hand of an ancient prophet, and THE patriarch of all western religion at that.
...
Oh yeah - That too.

They did display Abraham's actual journal for a few seconds at one point didn't they?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by Hagoth » Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:34 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:50 am
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:39 pm
They have also made no effort to display the only document written by the hand of an ancient prophet, and THE patriarch of all western religion at that.
...
Oh yeah - That too.

They did display Abraham's actual journal for a few seconds at one point didn't they?
They put the papyri and printer's plates on display for one day at the Church History Library. I was lucky enough to get in there and have a look. They have all of the papyri stuffed into a 3-ring binder that they had open to one page, and they didn't even open it to any of the BoA fragments. They just showed the Book of Joseph (TaShert Min) papyrus, cause it's the pretty one.

It kind of felt like one of those pretend transparency moves. "We don't hide anything about the Book of Abraham sources, we put them on display for one day, for all the world to see!"

It was fun to see the plates. I was surprised to see that they were carved into lead. I had always thought it was wood. I didn't know about the Anubis snout removal at the time, so I didn't look for signs of that.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by wtfluff » Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:45 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:34 pm
They put the papyri and printer's plates on display for one day at the Church History Library.
...
Ugh. I knew it was a short period of time, but one day???

My sarcastic few seconds comment rings too true.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by 2bizE » Sat Nov 05, 2022 9:53 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:17 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:46 pm
...
I hadn't heard that, but it sounds right on track. I once got a special behind-the-scenes tour of the SL temple by a sealer who took me to a spot above the Holy of Holies (if I remember correctly) and told that was where Talmage wrote Jesus the Christ. He spoke about it with such awe and reverence I suspect that he was familiar with that story.
...
The room above the Holy of Hollies is the "Dome Room" which I also think is a dressing room for the Q15, or the 70's or??? The dome above the Holly of Holies has stained glass windows in it.
Image



The "Talmage Room" was on the east side of the temple If I was told correctly. A small, almost "hidden" room. I wonder if the Talmage Room had separate ventilation, and if The Big Guy himself participated with Talmage in his herbal supplementation whilst proof-reading? :mrgreen:

https://askgramps.org/james-e-talmage-l ... us-christ/
This dome room is new to me. So, this is age is of the dome in the dome room? Directly below the dome is the Holy of Holies?
~2bizE

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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by deacon blues » Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:57 am

The "Gospel Tangents" series is well done. Rick Bennett seems like a nuanced Mormon- and with a sense of humor. :D And Joe Jessup is a very informed commentator on polygamy and its various proponents like AUB, FLDS, etc.
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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by moksha » Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:35 pm

Image
In the 23rd Century, a number of galaxy-class spaceships had di-lithium crystal chambers like this.
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Re: Original Doctrines

Post by wtfluff » Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:39 am

2bizE wrote:
Sat Nov 05, 2022 9:53 pm
This dome room is new to me. So, this is age is of the dome in the dome room? Directly below the dome is the Holy of Holies?
The photo is taken from inside the "dome room," and yes, the holy of holies is directly below that dome.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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