NOM

I know, I know, this dead horse has been beaten to death already, but I've still got the bruised soul and I can't seem to get past people rubbing it in that I don't pay tithing- and, according to them, I will most likely burn in hell. When I tell them that we try to be generous with our goods and money and we help out several charities and people in need, they give me the old worn out phase that someone coined long ago, "Oh you feel free to spend the Lord's money," or the like. To that I say:

1. If it is the Lord's money then why are we having this discussion. He has it. It is his. He can do with it as he pleases then.
2. Where can you find it in the scriptures that the Lord ever asked for, spent and cared about money, apart from advising people- rich people mostly- to give freely to the poor and the needy, but not a church. Never a church.
3. I don't care about burning in hell and I don't buy into that "fire insurance" nonsense either. I've heard all my life that the Lord is coming quickly now, but I see no evidence of it. The church has not filled the earth. What is it .001 percent of the world's population are Mormons? Good grief.

Anyways, the Ward kept bugging me clear up until Christmas to go see the Bishop, who is a kind and loving person whom I like very much, and know he'd just doing what is asked of him, so I don't fault him. But it is a new year, so I can get over it now and wait until the Fall- crud they don't even wait for winter anymore- before they start bugging me again.

4. If the Lord didn't want me to spend it, why did the Lord give it to me?

5. The Lord takes out my 10% pre-salary. If I didn't pay my tithing, my employer would have paid me $40K per year but since I pay all my tithing pre-salary, I only make about $36K per year.

Gatorbait wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:50 pm

...
"Oh you feel free to spend the Lord's money,"
...

Another answer along the lines of #1:

"I told The Lord where I was 'spending his money' and he said he was fine with it."

I always ask the Lord to take his share when I throw it up in the air towards heaven.

And for some unknown reason I always get 100% back as if he’s telling me “thanks for the offering, but I have $100+ Billion and no need right now!”

Seriously, if you want a quick an easy tithing declaration hack, do this one simple trick!

Text the bishop and say “Bishop, we understand you’re a busy man this time of year as are we, so please mark us down as full tithe payers.

Of course it only works if you actually know his name and phone number.

I take the Captain Kirk approach.

If the creator of the universe, and all of the gold and diamonds in it, was in charge of this church he would have all the money he needs. What money he did require from people would not be horded in a secret rainy day fund. It would be used to help people, like maybe the people freezing to death in the city where God keeps his main vacation home, along with well-heated guest houses on every corner. If a real resurrected Jesus wanted you to give money to help people (apparently he has lost the ability to help anyone directly), I'm sure he would be much happier to see you take some initiative, seek out people in need, and help them, rather than simply writing a check to a shady investment fund that pretends to be a charity for tax reasons.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:28 am

If the creator of the universe, and all of the gold and diamonds in it, was in charge of this church he would have all the money he needs.

God managed to create the entire world before I cut him a check for $3.50. Imagine what he can do with my $3.50.

nibbler wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 13, 2023 10:29 am

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:28 am

If the creator of the universe, and all of the gold and diamonds in it, was in charge of this church he would have all the money he needs.

God managed to create the entire world before I cut him a check for $3.50. Imagine what he can do with my $3.50.

Buy coffee!

First off, stop conversing with these idiots about tithing (or anything else) that you would prefer not to discuss. It's nothing but an emotionally draining exercise in futility for you (as it would be for most all of us.)

The only reply to give if they bring up tithing (or anything else for that matter) to you is the following....

"You know, we're doing great. Thanks for asking! And how are YOU doing?"

This is the response you use for everything regardless of what the question is from the other person. It's a simple technique our therapist taught us early on in the journey down the rabbit hole. I believe he called it "fogging." I used it; my TBM (at the time) wife used it; my kids used it. It's a simple and very effective.

The therapist called it "fogging." It feels a little awkward at first, but then you get used to using it. Think of it as setting a de facto boundary. My wife got really, really good at this. It helped her navigate those unwanted and annoying interactions in an effective way. She was like an angel with a drawn "fogging" sword.

People can a bit clueless and slow on the uptake, so you will more than likely have to repeat the response several times (during the same interaction) before the other person clues in to move on to something else. This technique can be used for any conversation that you don't wish to have.

Clueless Dolt: "I noticed you haven't signed up for Tithing Declaration yet. You should do that soon."

Gatorbait: "You know, we're doing great. Thanks for asking! And how are YOU doing?"

Clueless Dolt: "Don't you want the Lard's blessings? What kind of example are setting for your family?"

Gatorbait: "You know, we're doing great. Thanks for asking! And how are YOU doing?"

Clueless Dolt: (blinks) "You're on a slippery slope and if you're not careful, you could lose you testimony. Besides, you need to stay on the Covenant path--you made that commitment when you were baptized. People that aren't faithful and stop paying tithing will lose their testimony. It's often the first step down a dark path."

Gatorbait: "You know, we're doing great. Thanks for asking! And how are YOU doing?"

Clueless Dolt: (blinks, still struggling to process your response) "Doing okay. Well, gotta run." (turns and walks away)

Good luck!

Hermey, you and your wife are geniuses. Wow- what a great response. I'm going to use you wise advise with many thanks to you.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but wasn't it leaked that all tithing goes into the Ensign Peak fund, and the church pulls operating expenses from there. They average about $7B in tithing income and only have $5B in expediences, so $2B goes into additional investing for a "rainy day."

So 28.6% of tithing is goes into the slush fund.

Since the church claims that tithing is going build the kingdom, they only need 7% tithing. 3% of it does not go to building the kingdom. Just building more investment finds.

Please feel free to correct me if my numbers are wrong.

So just a little question here. How would you respond when someone inevitably says "the leaders of the church will be held responsible for how they use the funds. We are just responsible to pay our tithing."

Izhmash wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:20 pm

So just a little question here. How would you respond when someone inevitably says "the leaders of the church will be held responsible for how they use the funds. We are just responsible to pay our tithing."

Here's my thought: Who's going to hold them responsible? If they are misusing funds, they are clearly not doing God's will. If they are not doing God's will, they cannot be servants of God. They are just men running a investment fund with money taken from others. Some of those others are quite poor. It is immoral. We don't just let Bernie Madoff go free and say that he'll be responsible to God. We stick people like that in prison.

The Q15 are not going to prison. I know that. The only way we can hold them responsible is to stop contributing to their investment fund.

Izhmash wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:20 pm

So just a little question here. How would you respond when someone inevitably says "the leaders of the church will be held responsible for how they use the funds. We are just responsible to pay our tithing."

I might say, "According to who, the people collecting the tithing?"

Or, "I disagree about both of those. The leaders are not and will never be held responsible, and I am not responsible to pay tithing to the church."

The question implies that God picked the church leaders and that God wants you to give the church your money. If someone believes those things then there isn't much you can do to convince them against the good of tithing. But that doesn't mean you have to agree, or give your money to the church.

I've told this story before, but I haven't been to tithing settlement/declaration in nearly a decade. Now, they still want to know my status, so every year I email or text the bishop my status. That's it.

It's pretty easy to say why. Got a new bishop who wanted to know why I don't go. I simply say, "when the church deems it appropriate to let me know what they are doing with tithing funds, I will deem it appropriate to show up and talk about my own finances."

That's worked for a looooong time now. When you say things with a certain amount of chutzpah, you can get away with it.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:36 am

I've told this story before, but I haven't been to tithing settlement/declaration in nearly a decade. Now, they still want to know my status, so every year I email or text the bishop my status. That's it.

It's pretty easy to say why. Got a new bishop who wanted to know why I don't go. I simply say, "when the church deems it appropriate to let me know what they are doing with tithing funds, I will deem it appropriate to show up and talk about my own finances."

That's worked for a looooong time now. When you say things with a certain amount of chutzpah, you can get away with it.

Financial transparency is a two way street.

I’m an accountant so it bothers me when they don’t issue financial statements.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:36 am

I've told this story before, but I haven't been to tithing settlement/declaration in nearly a decade. Now, they still want to know my status, so every year I email or text the bishop my status. That's it.

It's pretty easy to say why. Got a new bishop who wanted to know why I don't go. I simply say, "when the church deems it appropriate to let me know what they are doing with tithing funds, I will deem it appropriate to show up and talk about my own finances."

That's worked for a looooong time now. When you say things with a certain amount of chutzpah, you can get away with it.

I really like this answer. I've never had a bishop ask for my reasons for not going to settlement. They haven't even asked for my status the last few years.

blazerb wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:59 am

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:36 am

I've told this story before, but I haven't been to tithing settlement/declaration in nearly a decade. Now, they still want to know my status, so every year I email or text the bishop my status. That's it.

It's pretty easy to say why. Got a new bishop who wanted to know why I don't go. I simply say, "when the church deems it appropriate to let me know what they are doing with tithing funds, I will deem it appropriate to show up and talk about my own finances."

That's worked for a looooong time now. When you say things with a certain amount of chutzpah, you can get away with it.

I really like this answer. I've never had a bishop ask for my reasons for not going to settlement. They haven't even asked for my status the last few years.

Yeah, I'm in a little different boat than many on here. For family and other reasons, I have a current temple recommend, and to justify it they want their books clean that I pay tithing. So that's why I at least email/text my status. But there is absolutely no way I'm showing up for a meeting. Ever again.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:04 am

Yeah, I'm in a little different boat than many on here. For family and other reasons, I have a current temple recommend, and to justify it they want their books clean that I pay tithing. So that's why I at least email/text my status. But there is absolutely no way I'm showing up for a meeting. Ever again.

You've set a good boundary. Good luck. It's got to be hard.

There is a joke where a priest, a minister, and a preacher are trying to decide how much money to give to charity.

The priest says: "Draw a circle on the ground, then throw all the money up in the air and whatever money lands inside the circle they should give to charity."
The minister says: "No. Draw a circle on the ground, then throw all the money up in the air and whatever money lands outside the circle, that is what they should give to charity."
The preacher says, "No, no, no. Draw a big circle on the ground. Then throw the money way up in the air and whatever God wants, he keeps."

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:28 am

God does not need the Starship Nauvoo. He is happy staying at His Ringworld in the Kolobian star system. However for Church Authorities to journey to that Ringworld, they will need the Starship and its construction will be expensive. For that many Authorities, you will need a large number of gold bathroom fixtures.

Additionally, the Nauvoo will be seeding planets they encounter along the way with Missionaries from Space. This is why Gartorbait's tithing is important.