Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

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Cnsl1
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Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Cnsl1 » Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:43 am

Let's not even get into what the spirit is, or who she is (I know some of you are still really hoping the Holy Ghost is like a hot cousin with a figure like Angelina Jolie), and just stick with WHY an unbeliever such as myself could still FEEL those cool things everyone at church used to tell me was the "spirit".

Here are some working hypotheses.

1. The adversary is deceiving me. And when people at church say "the adversary" what they really mean is Satan or Lucifer (his first name), but everyone knows that Satan's ears don't prick up when you say adversary so you're not inviting him to the party so long as you don't use his first or last name. And by deceiving me, I mean that Satan is such a smooth cat that he can soften my heart when I want to yell at the referee, and prompt me to turn around and help that scary looking dude who was just really thirsty and needed a working jack to change his tire.

2. So many Mormons stopped believing that there is a backlog on who to stop comforting. Another Mormon lost his testimony but he didn't resign or get exe'd? Yeah yeah, he's not supposed to feel the spirit anymore, but you know how hard it is to revoke the GIFT of the Holy Ghost? It's easier said than done, folks. It's not magic. There's paperwork that has to be filed out, in triplicate, it's gotta go through a committee, and finally HF has to approve it and good luck getting a meeting with that guy when he's answering prayers all day. So, it's the gift that keeps on giving even when you're saying I think this is all a bunch of horseshit.

3. The Holy Ghost isn't really a Mormon. I know, it sounds crazy, right? But maybe your hot spirit cousin hooked up with Buddha a while back and she's just giving out the comforting love to anyone who helps an old lady across the street or cheers for the Chiefs.

4. There really isn't such a thing as a Holy Ghost and I'm just getting a cool mix of neurochemicals at the right time and right place that make happy tears run down my face when Mama Coco starts singing or Mahomes limps for a first down.

5. God is Love and doesn't really care about religious horseshit.

Gatorbait
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Gatorbait » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:10 am

First of all, thank you for this thought provoking post. Nothing more mysterious in the Mormon church than the Holy Ghost and I for one have never believed that Mormons have or had an inside track on spiritual awareness, and the "gift" of the Holy Ghost is not a thing I believe at all, nor have I believed it since the time I was able to reason. The spirit, Holy Ghost, or whatever it is is still mysterious to me, yet I do not treat it lightly.

Please allow an experience I had many years ago on the shores of Lake Superior, the Canada side.

My dear friend, a Deacon in the Catholic Church at the time, and very devout then and now, and I were traveling together on a business trip which involved visiting mines on the northern side of Lake Superior, as I mentioned. As we traveled by car, one of us noticed a small sign which marked the entrance to a small dirt road that led to a maritime cemetery. We decided to take a quick look and check it out. As we drove up the unremarkable road that led to the graveyard, which was overgrown with bushes and trees, I wondered what we would find there and how old it had been there. The Gordon Lightfoot song, "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" came to mind, the part that said, "The Lake it is said never gives up its dead".

We got out of the car and wandered into the small cemetery and we both hesitated. We took a few steps more and my friend turned to me and in a hushed tone said, "Do you feel that?" I knew what he was talking about because I did indeed feel a powerful and calming presence there.
"Yes, I do", I said to him. "We are standing on hollowed ground". He agreed. We spent the next half hour there looking at the ancient grave stones weathered by the Canadian winds, rain and snow, and felt the presence of something that we could not explain but felt to the inner corners of our souls.

Years later we were together, enjoying some time together in his home in eastern Canada as I recall, and he brought up the experience and asked me if I remembered it. My eyes filled with tears and he knew the answer to his question. I don't know what it was, but whatever it was, it was a sacred experience for us both and it is something that we cherish together. Anyone have an experience like that? What was it?
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Red Ryder
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:12 pm

I’m short on time so will throw out a quick answer and then come back to expound on.

I believe it’s our brain neurochemistry and hope it’s universally God’s love.

Or perhaps a bit of both? God’s love has the ability to penetrate our minds and hearts to excite our brains neurochemistry?

But as Fluffy will probably post… which God?

So brain chemistry and the power of myth win my vote.

For anyone interested, the book Sapiens has a few good chapters that discuss this. I’ll dig out some notes and revise this later.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:40 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:12 pm
...
But as Fluffy will probably post… which God?
...
Today, and for this thread, I will choose the Goddess Marimba: An African goddess of music. She is graceful and wise and traditionally considered to be the most beautiful woman to have walked the earth.

I know beyond the shadow of knowing, that Iron Maiden is True™ because Marimba sent her ghostly sidekick to testify this truthiness to my heart, mind and soul during a loud, fiery concert.



So yeah. Neurochemistry, frisson, elevation emotion, human emotion... (No ghosts or spirits necessary.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:13 pm

The discovery of the "spiritual experience" outside of TSCC was a big one fore me on my path to post cult recovery. I found it in a big way out in the Uinta mountains alone one night, shooting the Milky Way over Butterfly Lake. I call it the Cosmo. I've since connected with it in many ways and I feel like it's actually me, or that I'm part of it, whatever it is. It does feel like there is this greater consciousness that we can tap into when we get into the right set and setting, most often out in nature, but also sometimes right in our own little squishy gray meat computer. I decided this greater thing is way outside the bounds any sapient mind has wrapped around it, at least in terms of an entity like a white haired old man, a spirit that never had a body or any of the other crazy ape ideas. Maybe it's just the background hum of this giant cosmic composter of destruction and creation, from the first atomic particles up to the biggest expanding galactic structures.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Red Ryder
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:53 am

I just added 2 items to my bucket list.

1. Hang out with Fluffy at a heavy metal concert. :evil: :twisted:
2. Journey into nature with Rubin! :ugeek:
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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deacon blues
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by deacon blues » Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:25 am

I always feel the spirit strongest in nature or while listening to music. F&T meetings not so much. I recently visited my daughter in Virginia and as she sang a lullaby to her little girl I broke into tears, and was quite emotional for some time. My granddaughter asked her Mom, "Why is Grandpa crying?" Her Mom explained, "Grandpa is crying happy tears."
Gee, it might have been the Goddess Marimba. :o
Maybe I should say I feel a spirit. I don't know about the spirit. :roll:
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:31 am

deacon blues wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:25 am
I always feel the spirit strongest in nature or while listening to music. F&T meetings not so much. I recently visited a daughter in Virginia and as she sang a lullaby to her little girl I broke into tears, and was quite emotional for some time.
Gee, it might have been the Goddess Marimba. :o
Maybe I should say I feel a spirit. I don't know about the spirit. :roll:
That’s an excellent observation Deacon.

I truly believe we can feel a spiritual emotion. Perhaps it’s like everything else where the church hijacks and projects the one true church narrative onto that?

Things like:
Fasting
Healthy living
Family time
The afterlife
Pretty much all things good?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by wtfluff » Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:32 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:53 am
I just added 2 items to my bucket list.

1. Hang out with Fluffy at a heavy metal concert. :evil: :twisted:
2. Journey into nature with Rubin! :ugeek:
Those are some mighty excellent and lofty goals. I'd like to join in on #2.

If we do it right, we can make an attempt to hit both of them at the same time at an outdoor concert venue. ;)



Disclaimer: I've felt elevated emotion* in many, many concerts / live music settings, not just seeing Iron Maiden. It's always fun to mention Iron Maiden because any high-demand religionist "knows" that a gaggle of retirement-age English Blokes with guitars and a PA system are EVIL! PURE EVIL! I mean, just look at an Iron Maiden "album cover" or t-shirt. There's no way Holy the Ghost™ would ever visit anyone at an Iron Maiden concert! :twisted:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Hagoth
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Hagoth » Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:43 am

Image


Long story short, because your brain is doing this ^

It comes as part of the standard package. Any brain can do it. No institution owns it, but they can indoctrinate you respect in only in situations that they define as legitimate, and they can label all others as counterfeit.

I remember feeling terrified on occasion, when I felt the spirit at times when I knew I shouldn't. How could Satan make me have the same feelings as the Holy Ghost? And equally disappointed when I couldn't feel it but knew I should? Was I so unworthy that the HG couldn't even toss me a crumb?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Hagoth » Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:47 am

wtfluff wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:32 am
It's always fun to mention Iron Maiden because any high-demand religionist "knows" that a gaggle of retirement-age English Blokes with guitars and a PA system are EVIL!
This just in: hidden cameras in the Holy of Holies reveal that the HG looks like this:
Image
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by wtfluff » Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:37 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:47 am
wtfluff wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:32 am
It's always fun to mention Iron Maiden because any high-demand religionist "knows" that a gaggle of retirement-age English Blokes with guitars and a PA system are EVIL!
This just in: hidden cameras in the Holy of Holies reveal that the HG looks like this:
Image
Oh dear. Some folks are definitely triggered at this point. I do love that mythological creature in that photo though. (Yeah, I'm weird...)

Literally one of, if not the best marketing ploy in the history of the music industry.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:15 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:53 am
I just added 2 items to my bucket list.

1. Hang out with Fluffy at a heavy metal concert. :evil: :twisted:
2. Journey into nature with Rubin! :ugeek:
Let me be clear Red; when I said I was shooting the Milky Way, that was with a camera and not a white substance one might place in their nasal cavity or any type of syringe. But I will say that adding some plant based magic molecules definitely helps synch me up with the natural divine cosmo. I shall also add to my list to hit the metal gig with the Fluff and I think we should make an effort here to also "gather" sometime out to one of the many amazing desert or forest locations where the setting is prime for cosmic communion. :ugeek:
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Red Ryder
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:57 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:15 pm
Let me be clear Red; when I said I was shooting the Milky Way, that was with a camera and not a white substance one might place in their nasal cavity or any type of syringe. But I will say that adding some plant based magic molecules definitely helps synch me up with the natural divine cosmo. I shall also add to my list to hit the metal gig with the Fluff and I think we should make an effort here to also "gather" sometime out to one of the many amazing desert or forest locations where the setting is prime for cosmic communion. :ugeek:
I got the reference to your camera based on all these years you’ve been talking about it and posted links to your IG.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:56 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:57 pm
I got the reference to your camera based on all these years you’ve been talking about it and posted links to your IG.
Just my attempt at some sarcasm Red. I've been known to drink a beer or two. But then again I've been know to do a lot of things...or maybe I'm just allergic to sweaters.
https://youtu.be/fRnWacLl8QY
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Hagoth
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Hagoth » Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:40 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:56 am
https://youtu.be/fRnWacLl8QY
Wait... that's the Cosmo you were talking about?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Hagoth » Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:56 am

I think a very simple way to look at it is that the human brain and body are perfectly capable of producing the feeling we call "the spirit" without the need to attribute it to invisible beings.

There might be invisible beings contributing to these feelings, but we have absolutely no way of detecting them, or of differentiating such exterior influences from the interior ones.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by deacon blues » Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:39 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:56 am
I think a very simple way to look at it is that the human brain and body are perfectly capable of producing the feeling we call "the spirit" without the need to attribute it to invisible beings.

There might be invisible beings contributing to these feelings, but we have absolutely no way of detecting them, or of differentiating such exterior influences from the interior ones.
I wonder why the Church doesn't sponsor studies of the brain under the influence of the spirit, but I think it's probably because they want the Spirit to remain a mystery that may only be defined by those in authority, that is the brethren. :?
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by malkie » Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:16 am

deacon blues wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:39 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:56 am
I think a very simple way to look at it is that the human brain and body are perfectly capable of producing the feeling we call "the spirit" without the need to attribute it to invisible beings.

There might be invisible beings contributing to these feelings, but we have absolutely no way of detecting them, or of differentiating such exterior influences from the interior ones.
I wonder why the Church doesn't sponsor studies of the brain under the influence of the spirit, but I think it's probably because they want the Spirit to remain a mystery that may only be defined by those in authority, that is the brethren. :?
One of my IRL friends is a researcher in the field of cognitive neurobiology. He presented "This is your brain on God" at TEDxSaltLakeCity in 2016:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocuqguH1OIw
Can science give us insights into age-old questions about religion? In this talk, Dr. Michael Ferguson describes the study he and his team conducted on believing Mormons when they reported to "feel the Spirit," a central event in Mormon worship. What they found might surprise both believers and skeptics.

Michael Ferguson is inspired by questions about human brains and the gods they adore. His research program examines the intersections of culture and brain through the lenses of cutting-edge fMRI methods and cognitive neuroscience. Most recently, he is conducting interdisciplinary work with philosophy of mind to analytically describe intelligence. As a graduate student at the University of Utah’s department of bioengineering, he, his committee chair, and co-investigators designed and executed a first-of- its-kind fMRI study, looking at the brain activity of returned missionaries for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints while the research participants were involved in acts of religious worship and devotion. Michael and his husband were the first same-sex couple legally married in the state of Utah, and they retain a major portion of their heart and love in Salt Lake City. They currently live in upstate New York, the spiritual cradle of their native faith.
Note: Not sponsored by the Mormon church!
aka malkie

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Hagoth
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Re: Why Do I Still Feel the Spirit? (when I don't really believe)

Post by Hagoth » Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:52 pm

malkie wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:16 am
One of my IRL friends is a researcher in the field of cognitive neurobiology.
Malkie, you're friends with Michael Ferguson? Holy cow. He's the guy got this whole field rolling.

I will PM you.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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