O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by deacon blues » Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:35 pm

I would submit that prophets as depicted in unique LDS scriptures (BOM, D&C, PofGP) rarely make mistakes. The 116 pages and Joseph Smith is a rare example. However in the Old Testament we see prophets makings plenty of mistakes. Jonah and the whale, and Moses not giving God credit for purifying the waters, etc. . (Numbers 20:2-12.)
I would ask: are there any other clear examples of prophets sinning or disobeying God in the Old Testament?
If there are such examples, do they constitute "evil speaking of the Lord's anointed?"
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by alas » Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:10 am

Peter screwed up when he said he didn’t know or follow Jesus. Moses when he failed to respect Miriam’s inspiration. But that takes a bit of feminist thinking. Lot when he raped his daughters, then said they seduced him. If he is too drunk to recognize it is his daughters, he is too drunk to get it up. This is real common behavior among men who have sex with children or their own daughters, is the adult man blames the less powerful child. So, double sin there of doing it, then blaming them. And I don’t excuse Abraham for his lies about his wife being his sister, or being commanded to sacrifice his son, and I think kicking Hagar out into the desert with the only bread and water she could carry, while carrying her baby, yeah that was a sin. He can’t give her a donkey or two and a few weeks worth of food and water? He sent her out into the desert to die. Sin.

Nephi also said he felt guilty, just didn’t say what he did, which is the same weasel out of it as Joseph Smith did in his writings.

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3660
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by wtfluff » Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:43 am

Nephi killing Laban: Mistake. That's as much brainpower as I want to spend on BoM prophets making mistakes, I'm sure I could think of others.

And the list of Joseph Smith's mistakes beyond the 116 pages? That list might be endless.

That same endless list applies to every MORmON "prophet" since Joe. Racism and bigotry? Check. They've all been patently dishonest with the membership is another one to start with the list of mistakes.


ETA:
(Sorry, my post is really off-topic, but I'm being "That Guy" and calling out Mr. Blues' Statement: "unique LDS scriptures (BOM, D&C, PofGP) rarely make mistakes". My Fluffy apostate brain sees lots of mistakes. Let's add D&C 132 to my list... :idea: )
Last edited by wtfluff on Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

User avatar
blazerb
Posts: 1615
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by blazerb » Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:49 am

Balaam messed up by telling the Moabite king how to get the Israelites to sin. Saul messed up (in Biblical values) even after he was counted among the prophets. He didn't kill all the animals and consulted with the witch. David had sex with Bathsheba and killed Uriah. Did Hoseah mess up by marrying Gomer who later cheated on him? Eli the high priest messed up by not keeping his sons in check. Samuel's kids were about as bad, if I remember correctly, but he did not seem to be held accountable. Samson messed up in getting involved with Delilah. Job is reported to have repented at the end of his ordeal. Did Noah mess up by getting drunk and naked? Aaron made the golden calf. Miriam was called a prophetess. She murmured and was cast out of the congregation for a time. Joseph was a jerk. Does that count? Alas mentioned Abraham. Isaac also lied about his wife. Jacob deceived Isaac. Judah had sex with his daughter in law, but I don't know if you would consider him a prophet.

This was my stream of consciousness list.

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by alas » Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:10 am

blazerb wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:49 am
Balaam messed up by telling the Moabite king how to get the Israelites to sin. Saul messed up (in Biblical values) even after he was counted among the prophets. He didn't kill all the animals and consulted with the witch. David had sex with Bathsheba and killed Uriah. Did Hoseah mess up by marrying Gomer who later cheated on him? Eli the high priest messed up by not keeping his sons in check. Samuel's kids were about as bad, if I remember correctly, but he did not seem to be held accountable. Samson messed up in getting involved with Delilah. Job is reported to have repented at the end of his ordeal. Did Noah mess up by getting drunk and naked? Aaron made the golden calf. Miriam was called a prophetess. She murmured and was cast out of the congregation for a time. Joseph was a jerk. Does that count? Alas mentioned Abraham. Isaac also lied about his wife. Jacob deceived Isaac. Judah had sex with his daughter in law, but I don't know if you would consider him a prophet.

This was my stream of consciousness list.
Actually, according to the culture of the time, Judah not giving his dead son a child through that dead son’s wife was the sin. So, it was refusing to have sex with her that was the sin back then. She had to trick him into it in order to fulfill her duty to her dead husband, then prove the child was his by keeping his staff(?? Was it)

This is why presentism is a problem. What is the sin today, was not the sin back then. And I did it too. I Judged Lot by today’s standards. His daughters were his property to marry off for a bride price or keep for himself, but his property. They were not considered as individuals with rights, but as Lot’s property.

And the question was about prophets and some people in the Bible were kings or important, but were never called prophets, like David. He screwed up but he wasn’t the prophet. Isaac was a patriarch, but was he a prophet? Even Abraham, sure we call him a prophet, but the Bible doesn’t use the term for him does it?

User avatar
blazerb
Posts: 1615
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by blazerb » Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:47 pm

alas wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:10 am
Actually, according to the culture of the time, Judah not giving his dead son a child through that dead son’s wife was the sin. So, it was refusing to have sex with her that was the sin back then. She had to trick him into it in order to fulfill her duty to her dead husband, then prove the child was his by keeping his staff(?? Was it)

This is why presentism is a problem. What is the sin today, was not the sin back then. And I did it too. I Judged Lot by today’s standards. His daughters were his property to marry off for a bride price or keep for himself, but his property. They were not considered as individuals with rights, but as Lot’s property.

And the question was about prophets and some people in the Bible were kings or important, but were never called prophets, like David. He screwed up but he wasn’t the prophet. Isaac was a patriarch, but was he a prophet? Even Abraham, sure we call him a prophet, but the Bible doesn’t use the term for him does it?
You're right, all the stories I mentioned are more complicated. Talking with someone who really understands the culture of the time when these were recorded would add a lot to each. It's interesting. It could be that the person who really understands would add a bunch of places where prophets messed up in the OT that I don't even notice while arguing that some of what we list would not be seen as sin back then.

Hasn't incest been seen as wrong by most people for a long time? At least parent-child incest. Marrying a sibling or cousin might have been seen as acceptable. I really don't know, though.

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7171
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by Hagoth » Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:31 pm

Old Testament prophets made the same mistake as some other partakers of psychedelic substances. They assumed the visions they were seeing came from entities outside of their own heads. Isaiah's and Ezekiel's visions are dead ringers for DMT visions. Some species of acacia in the Near East contain high enough concentrations to get a breakthrough psychedelic experience by smoldering them on a brazier and inhaling the fumes from the embers.
Isaiah 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
Ezekiel ate something that he called a "scroll", after which:
Ezekiel 1:13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. 15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. 18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. 19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.
I'm tellin' ya, that is as good a description of a DMT trip as you will ever read, ancient or modern.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Cnsl1
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by Cnsl1 » Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:44 am

I could be wrong, but I didn't think Lot was a prophet. And based on the Bible story I remember it was his daughters that got him drunk and seduced him. The apologetic I've heard for that one is that the daughters thought they were the only people left after Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed so wanted to reproduce and their dad was the only male they could find. They had to liquor him up so he'd do it. But, Lot DID earlier try to give his daughters up to be gang raped to save a prophet or holy man, so... maybe the daughters were getting him back. Who knows with that family.

I heard their mom was pretty salty.

User avatar
2bizE
Posts: 2431
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by 2bizE » Thu Mar 02, 2023 8:33 pm

There are several examples in the Old Testament of prophets made mistakes. There is the story of Gandalf going to get advice from Saruman and does not recognize he has turned to evil and Gandalf gets trapped on top of the tower.
There is also the many sins of King Joffrey Baratheon. And also, let’s not forget the overzealous, religious nut High Sparrow. I could go on and on…
~2bizE

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by alas » Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:48 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:44 am
I could be wrong, but I didn't think Lot was a prophet. And based on the Bible story I remember it was his daughters that got him drunk and seduced him. The apologetic I've heard for that one is that the daughters thought they were the only people left after Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed so wanted to reproduce and their dad was the only male they could find. They had to liquor him up so he'd do it. But, Lot DID earlier try to give his daughters up to be gang raped to save a prophet or holy man, so... maybe the daughters were getting him back. Who knows with that family.

I heard their mom was pretty salty.
Yeah, and after being a counselor in a group of men who were guilty of the same thing, using that exact same excuse, I don’t believe that Biblical account of events. “My daughter seduced me.” “Besides, I was too drunk to know who I was even with.” Every stupid perp in the group used some excuse. “I was teaching my daughter about sex.” “My wife was a pillar of salt.” Well, they might have called the wife unwilling or gone, but they figured out how to blame it on the wife. One man blamed his two year old for seducing him.

And usually it takes more than one sex act to get someone pregnant, and two daughters during the same drunk episode???? During which he was too drunk to tell his wife, who was gone for how long, from his daughters?

The only difference with Lot was that he didn’t have a support group of other men guilty of the same thing calling him on his bullshit. Instead it got written down as gospel truth. But, scientific fact: if a man is too drunk to not tell his wife from his daughter, he is too drunk to get an erection. Lot’s story is scientifically impossible. How exactly did he impregnate them if he was so drunk?

And did anybody ever ask the daughters? Nope, we just take Lot’s side of things.

And don’t forget this was the same man who sent his daughters out to get raped.

Yeah, angels visited him. That qualifies him as a prophet if angels come to him. Or, don’t you believe the biblical account that makes him a prophet?

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by deacon blues » Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:53 am

I never thought of Lot as a prophet, but he was visited by angels. That is hefty evidence.

The apostle Peter said Lot was righteous, and he should know, right?
2nd Peter 2:7 "and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless" :roll:
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by alas » Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:57 am

deacon blues wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:53 am
The apostle Peter said Lot was righteous, and he should know, right?
2nd Peter 2:7 "and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless" :roll:
I don’t expect Peter to know the science behind what point of drunkenness when a guy can’t get it up. Or maybe I just forgive him for believing the biblical account. But, *here* we are NOMs and doubters and septics. Act like it. :lol:

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by deacon blues » Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:09 am

aye aye, Capt'n :shock:
Although I'd rather not be a septic. :lol:
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

User avatar
blazerb
Posts: 1615
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by blazerb » Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:58 pm

alas wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:57 am
deacon blues wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:53 am
The apostle Peter said Lot was righteous, and he should know, right?
2nd Peter 2:7 "and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless" :roll:
I don’t expect Peter to know the science behind what point of drunkenness when a guy can’t get it up. Or maybe I just forgive him for believing the biblical account. But, *here* we are NOMs and doubters and septics. Act like it. :lol:
Is it likely that the story was made up by Israelites who just wanted to say that other peoples were the result of incest?

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by deacon blues » Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:29 pm

Yes Blazerb, that is my broke-shelf, post-enlightenment take on it. 8-)
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by alas » Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:33 pm

blazerb wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:58 pm
alas wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:57 am
deacon blues wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:53 am
The apostle Peter said Lot was righteous, and he should know, right?
2nd Peter 2:7 "and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless" :roll:
I don’t expect Peter to know the science behind what point of drunkenness when a guy can’t get it up. Or maybe I just forgive him for believing the biblical account. But, *here* we are NOMs and doubters and septics. Act like it. :lol:
Is it likely that the story was made up by Israelites who just wanted to say that other peoples were the result of incest?
It is odd that a totally made up story would use the two statistically most common excuses that incest offenders use, unless the person who made it up had talked to a bunch of men who had sex with their daughter, and just said well, this is what father’s who get their daughters pregnant say happened, so it must have happened with those evil people too.

But I think either the story was totally made up, or taken from history somewhere and applied to say those people are inferior, just look at how they were conceived. But happened to the nephew of Abraham? to create two new nations? not really likely. Because how many brothers really split their children into tribes and then into nations? It just doesn’t sound credible, and in order for the two brothers to have the kind of big household to support multiple wives and many children, they would have had to have tremendous wealth, and didn’t Lot leave all his wealth? It just seems odd. About as believable as the two brothers who founded Rome, being raised by wolves and yet they functioned well enough as humans to marry and leave descendants? Spoke a nice language and even knew they were brothers. Sure, raised by wolves, from the age of 15. The boys scientists have found who were raised by wolves didn’t talk or function as humans really. So, yeah, just a founding story with little to no actually truth to it.

But see, the story of Rome’s founders has a smidgen of truth in that there have been human children raised by wolves. It isn’t like the made up story said raised by lions of giraffes.

Cnsl1
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by Cnsl1 » Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:48 am

It's pretty much a known fact that you can learn to talk if you're raised by wolves, AND also have a bear friend and a panther advisor. You can even talk to snakes, buzzards, and elephants. And pretty much everyone over the age of 30 should know that unless they were raised by wolves.

You bring up great points about the Lot story, Alas, and what about the head scratcher that the tale also suggests God seemed ok with incest and giving up your kids to be gang raped but he destroyed two cities cuz of gay sex orgies.

But... God was pretty weird back then. Probably new to the job and only kinda nipotent. And a real jerk at times.

Abraham, kill your son!
Naw, just kidding. Psych!

And look what he did to Job before he got over his gambling problem. At least he never bet against his guys.. same as Pete Rose. But did that keep him out of the God Hall of Fame? Maybe it did, actually, cuz you never read about that. I could imagine God keeping something like that out of the papers. What a jerk.

I still scratch my head over the Job story for a number of reasons. I don't think it really happened, of course, but the fact that the story is in the Bible says a lot about the people putting it together, what they thought about God, and how they valued women and children.

But say all these things happened as documented in the Old Testament (which I think we should start calling the really old Testament because the other one is not new anymore.. it's pretty damn old too), AND say the Mormons are right and Jesus was the God of the Really Old Testament, can we forgive some of the mistakes he made because he grew up as a spoiled favored child, didn't have a body yet to know what boils really felt like, and had not yet developed empathy? He gets WAY better in the Not Quite as Old Testament when he's walking around in the crappy sandals. It's like he's not even the same guy.

Unfortunately, whatever he learned didn't really stick cuz when he shows up again in the D&C, he's back to being a jerk.

But hey, the guy could destroy cities better than anyone else, so you're always going to have people saying he should be in the hall of fame.

User avatar
LSOF
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:16 pm
Location: Mare Crisium
Contact:

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by LSOF » Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:37 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:48 am

But say all these things happened as documented in the Old Testament (which I think we should start calling the really old Testament because the other one is not new anymore.. it's pretty damn old too), AND say the Mormons are right and Jesus was the God of the Really Old Testament, can we forgive some of the mistakes he made because he grew up as a spoiled favored child, didn't have a body yet to know what boils really felt like, and had not yet developed empathy? He gets WAY better in the Not Quite as Old Testament when he's walking around in the crappy sandals. It's like he's not even the same guy.

Unfortunately, whatever he learned didn't really stick cuz when he shows up again in the D&C, he's back to being a jerk.

But hey, the guy could destroy cities better than anyone else, so you're always going to have people saying he should be in the hall of fame.
I would dispute that Jesus is any better than Yahweh. At least Yahweh's cruelty, immense as it was, ended at the grave. Jesus introduced eternal torment for those who displease him and let his prophets and apostles to fantasize graphically about the exact nature of the torment—and after all this, he let his followers tell the world that he is the very definition of love: he is the greatest abuser ever conceived by mankind.
"I appreciate your flesh needs to martyr me." Parture

"There is no contradiction between faith and science --- true science." Dr Zaius

Pastor, Lunar Society of Friends; CEO, Faithful Origins and Ontology League

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1951
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by deacon blues » Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:52 am

The "really Old Testament?" That cracks me up, cnsl1! :lol:
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

Cnsl1
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: O.T. Prophets who messed up.

Post by Cnsl1 » Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:54 am

deacon blues wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:52 am
The "really Old Testament?" That cracks me up, cnsl1! :lol:
Thanks.

What I thought was funny is the idea that God can't get into the God Hall of Fame because it came out that he made a bet with Satan on Job. I have a weird sense of humor.

Obviously Nephi and the rest of the BofM prophets will always have that asterisk beside their names in the Prophet Hall of Fame since Friberg's pictures came out, showing pretty definitively that they were using steroids. You don't get jacked like that just swinging your sword around.

Yeah I know, it was a different time and everyone was doing it, but you can't compare the feats of someone like Ammon who chopped off arms like he was cutting pieces of pumpkin pie with someone like Moses who struggled to hold the ten commandments in both hands wth them balanced on his hips. Clearly, Ammon was juiced. Call me a purist, but I don't think those juiced BofM guys should be in.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests