Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

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2bizE
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Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by 2bizE » Thu Mar 02, 2023 12:27 pm

I have not been to the temple in a while, but it appears the new temple changes included a message that the temple endowment is symbolic. I read that to be metaphorical as well.
The endowment explains about the creation and life of Adam and Eve. Are we supposed to believe this creation is symbolic or metaphorical?
Elder Holland and other apostles have publicly taught that the Garden of Eden was literally real. That Adam and Eve were actual humans and our first parents.

Does this statement from Holland align with the new temple message around symbolism?
~2bizE

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Red Ryder
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:27 pm

The pattern I see in the church is that the narrative all starts out literal until evidentiary evidence ceases to exist at which point the narrative becomes symbolic or metaphorical. Examples of this include Book of Mormon translation, historicity, and authorship. Emergency plane landings in Delta. Adam and Eve temple ceremonies.

Essentially a method of speaking out of both sides of their mouth.

So yes, Adam and Eve were literal.

The temple endowment recreates their literal religious experience which then magically becomes symbolic to us as a means to let our advanced minds reconcile the indefensible. So rather than say it’s all BS, they says it’s all symbolic which allows for the individual to make up whatever reasoning they want to make it real to them.
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wtfluff
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by wtfluff » Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:11 pm

Everything is literal, until it isn't, then it's metaphorical/symbolic?

How do you know what is which and when?

It depends.

If someone is asking a question, then "leadership" chooses the option that answers that question. The most important use of this flip-flopping is when giving a different answer will get a member to continue paying TITHING!
Last edited by wtfluff on Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ghost
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by Ghost » Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:14 pm

I had a mission companion who insisted that every event and word in the temple presentation involving Adam and Eve was literal history. Even at my most devout, thought that it was plainly obvious that it was a vehicle to teach the audience. But of course I still believed in the creation and fall stories as I'd been taught them in church.
Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 2:6) wrote: You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not, to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you please-that I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child.

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deacon blues
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by deacon blues » Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:02 am

Moses 3:21–23. Adam’s Rib
President Spencer W. Kimball taught that Eve was not literally created from Adam’s rib. He said: “The story of the rib, of course, is figurative” (“The Blessings and Responsibilities of Womanhood,” Ensign, Mar. 1976, 71).

“The story [of the rib,] of course, is figurative”
Why couldn't Pres. Kimball just say "The story of course, is figurative?" Because he would have had a real battle on his hands from the McConkieites. :oops:

I think it is a real problem that there are more literalists now, percentage wise, in the Church, than there were when I was a kid. :(

You know, I might still be active if it weren't for the literalism, and the homophobia, and the misrepresentation, and the.... naw, I guess I wouldn't. :(
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by Hagoth » Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:52 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:27 pm
Essentially a method of speaking out of both sides of their mouth.
And at least one other orifice.
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 3:27 pm
So rather than say it’s all BS...
You know how people pressure on you to learn something new every time I go to the temple? I regret never having said, "Today I learned that it's all BS." (aside: our poor neighbor's husband who makes her report the new thing she learned each time. Talk about pressure!)
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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wtfluff
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by wtfluff » Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:04 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:52 pm
You know how people pressure on you to learn something new every time I go to the temple? I regret never having said, "Today I learned that it's all BS." (aside: our poor neighbor's husband who makes her report the new thing she learned each time. Talk about pressure!)
"Today I learned the quickest way to do the hoky-poky and turn my baker's hat around"

I've had this discussion with other folks at the apostate ward: Literally the only thing I learned in the temple was the quickest way to do all the stupid clothing changes without (hopefully) dropping something on the floor and getting scolded by some old-ish guy "for and in behalf of Peter, who is a pre-existent spirit that can shake hands" in the polygamy-palace ceremony.

(Oh, and I memorized some "symbolic/maybe not symbolic" (useless) signs and tokens.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Hagoth
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by Hagoth » Mon Mar 06, 2023 4:06 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:04 pm
(Oh, and I memorized some "symbolic/maybe not symbolic" (useless) signs and tokens.)
You know what WOULD make them useful? If you actually could sell them for money. You know, the way the church does.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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2bizE
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by 2bizE » Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:47 pm

I was doing some research on A&E and found this wonderful discussion on this thread from a few years ago.


https://newordermormon.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0&start=20
~2bizE

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nibbler
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by nibbler » Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:51 am

Everything is literal until evidence that it's not becomes undeniable.

I've heard that some time back the temple included language that it was symbolic and that sometime later that language was removed. I guess they're adding it back. Temple presidents must have been exhausted by countless people asking how Peter could shake Adam's hand.

When I went through the temple for the first time the ancillary instruction that I received was that the events depicted happened and everything that took place at the veil was literal. Every motion had to be perfect, every word uttered had to follow the script exactly. I came out of that experience believing that I had to have the veil approach 100% memorized with absolutely no mistakes whatsoever or else I wouldn't make it into heaven. I didn't invent that on my own, it was instilled in me by people that believed it themselves.

Of course there are symbols, like wearing white and the like, but the events depicted during the endowment were not presented as metaphorical or symbolic. The only thing that was presented as metaphorical or symbolic was that each person in the audience was to project themselves into Adam or Eve and pretend like they were going through the experiences that Adam and Eve literally went through.

Now I hear people using the bit about imagining you're Adam or Eve as a method to shoehorn in everything else that doesn't make sense as being symbolic or metaphorical. It's another case of moving goalposts.

The ordinance doesn't change!
This bit changed.
No it didn't.
You went through the temple when I did, you know it's different now!
The bit that changed wasn't actually a part of the ordinance!
It was considered a part of the ordinance then.
It never was!

Just like literalism, ordinances don't change, until they do, and then what people consider to be the ordinance has to change. You'll never nail down which pieces of the temple are literal and which pieces are symbolic just like you won't nail down which pieces are the actual ordinance and which aren't. As soon as you draw that line it will have to be redrawn.

It's a pointless fight. People that were taught (or believe) it was literal argue with people that were taught (or believe) it was symbolic. Truth be told, it's both and leadership is content to let the parties fight it out amongst themselves instead of addressing the issue head on. "Look, we changed our interpretation as our understanding grew." or, "Look, we're too afraid to make the call one way or the other." Letting people argue about it is easier than saying either of those things.

If it truly was symbolic this whole time I really struggle over what the hell it was supposed to be symbolic of.

Hey, there are these handshakes and signs you have to make to get into heaven.
For real?
For real.
Like, really? I mean, are you serious?
Well no, it's all symbolic.
Symbolic of what exactly?
...
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

Cnsl1
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by Cnsl1 » Tue Mar 07, 2023 6:44 am

I haven't been for quite a while.

Is it true that you don't actually shake/ touch hands anymore?

They used to say, "we desire all to receive it" and ask to make sure everyone received that touch token. The ordinance workers went out of their way to get that dang token to everyone in the room. Why would anyone come out of that experience thinking that is was NOT necessary to physically receive that bit of secrecy?

Why would anyone come away from the veil experience thinking it wasn't necessary to say the words EXACTLY correct (even though if you acted confident and rattled it off fast, they'd often miss small errors)?

As an aside, it used to bug me when a worker would tell me the words when I'd pause a second to either recall, or to think about what I was saying in an effort to try to feel something spiritual about the process. I wanted to tell them please shut up, I know the damn lines, let me process this experience. But no, they gotta herd you through the veil so other people can get through the veil. Then don't stay in the celestial room too long in contemplative spirit, cuz we got more sheep to herd in here. Move along, move along.

So, yeah, you come away with the feeling that it's pretty damn literal as far as the tokens and signs and names are concerned. Obviously you're thrown a bit when the film shows Peter shaking Adam's hand and for us older folk, the preacher preaching to the congregation of Adam and Eve. Those parts force you to think symbolically. And yes, there used to be part of the narrative that said explicitly that we all represented Adam and Eve symbolically, or that they were us... but also pretty direct that we were getting the SAME stuff they got so many years ago, which sure seemed literal.

I used to really try to find the symbolism in it all, because when I truly believed, I believed there was more symbolism in it than not, but it's difficult to think about and find it through the brain-numbing monotany of the process as well as the frequent costume changes. I think people start trying to memorize the process and the procedures, when they're not thinking about lunch and trying to stay awake, so then even the really weird bits don't sink in and bother as much as they normally would. We can't raise our hand and say, "wait, what was that again?" We just have to go through the long process again and raise our hands while saying aloud some supposed Adamic words (back in the day at least) and feeling sorry for the short woman on our right who's trying to rest their elbow on your shoulder while enduring the true order of prayer. I honestly never got a good answer on what made that the true ORDER of prayer, or even what was meant by the word "order".

So when a bishop asked how he could get me back to the temple... thinking it was sin keeping me away. Nope, I just do not find it edifying. I have better things to do with my time. My only desire to return relates to morbid curiosity. What kind of changes and weird shit are they up to now?

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Hagoth
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Re: Reconciling the new temple teachings and literalism

Post by Hagoth » Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:39 am

nibbler wrote:
Tue Mar 07, 2023 5:51 am
I've heard that some time back the temple included language that it was symbolic and that sometime later that language was removed.
I remember when the script said it was symbolic "so far as the man and woman are concerned." I never knew what that meant. Sometimes I thought it meant the Adam and Eve story is an allegory, and sometimes I thought it meant the actors symbolically represent an actual Adam and Eve.

I also used to imagine myself trying to get into heaven, after all of the meeting attending, tithe paying, mission serving, lesson teaching, etc. etc. and not being allowed to enter the gates because I said "through" all eternity instead of "throughout."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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