Pride works both ways.

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deacon blues
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Pride works both ways.

Post by deacon blues » Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:49 pm

I've heard a dozen or more talks/lessons about how pride led people out of the Church. Has anyone considered how pride might keep people in the Church? On my mission it was a combination of pride and fear that kept me from confronting the criticisms of the Church. Sure some of them were false, but in my gut I knew some of them were true.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by Hagoth » Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:38 pm

Yes. Many of us know someone who fancies themselves the "go to guy" in their ward for gospel/scripture/apologetics answers. It is a big part of their identity and they are very proud of the lofty position in which they imagine themselves. As a result, they are very derisive of alternative views, angry at people who question, and uncapable of putting themselves in a humble mindset where they might be vulnerable to ideas that might threaten their prowess.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by Palerider » Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:25 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:38 pm
Yes. Many of us know someone who fancies themselves the "go to guy" in their ward for gospel/scripture/apologetics answers. It is a big part of their identity and they are very proud of the lofty position in which they imagine themselves. As a result, they are very derisive of alternative views, angry at people who question, and uncapable of putting themselves in a humble mindset where they might be vulnerable to ideas that might threaten their prowess.
Ha!

You've just described my mother- and father-in-law. Scarey how self-righteous and condescending these people can be. And yet utterly convinced of their own correctness. It's actually embarrassing for my wife and yet she does love them inspite of their blind spot.

My own parents, who had their own faults as do we all, may not have been as "educated" but at least they were willing to learn.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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moksha
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by moksha » Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:04 pm

The reason Socrates was the wisest person in Athens was that he realized how little he knew, and was willing to ask questions to seek answers. He questioned the answers to understand all the ins and out of how the answer was formulated.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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blazerb
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by blazerb » Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:52 am

I think "Beware of Pride" has become a thought-stopping cliché in the church. It keeps people from considering the real problems and ignores the pride on the other side, as you note. No one can tell me that apostles are not prideful when they require the congregation to stand as they enter or leave the room. Somehow the rules don't apply to them.

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Hagoth
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by Hagoth » Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:27 pm

moksha wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:04 pm
The reason Socrates was the wisest person in Athens was that he realized how little he knew, and was willing to ask questions to seek answers. He questioned the answers to understand all the ins and out of how the answer was formulated.
And we all know where that got him.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by Hagoth » Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:33 pm

blazerb wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:52 am
I think "Beware of Pride" has become a thought-stopping cliché in the church.
Yes, like so many other words in Mormonism (e.g. translate, modesty, worthiness), pride has developed a new definition. Thinking for yourself is pride. Not being gullible is pride. Failing to obey without question is pride. Bragging for decades about what an amazing missionary you were, or how many chickens you brought to widows one Christmas 50 years ago is not pride. It is humility.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by Palerider » Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:31 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:33 pm
Bragging for decades about what an amazing missionary you were, or how many chickens you brought to widows one Christmas 50 years ago is not pride. It is humility.
I was walking through the temple one time when a temple worker proudly announced that they had "freed 551 spirits from spirit prison that day!"

I thought, "Really???......you think Heavenly Father keeps good spirits in Spirit Prison with murderers, rapists, thieves, etc., just because they haven't had an earthly ordinance performed for them?"

And here I thought that we were supposed to be judged by our actions and what is in our hearts.
That was when I began to question the validity of vicarious ordinances. :?: :|
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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moksha
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by moksha » Sun Mar 26, 2023 1:19 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:27 pm
moksha wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:04 pm
The reason Socrates was the wisest person in Athens was that he realized how little he knew, and was willing to ask questions to seek answers. He questioned the answers to understand all the ins and out of how the answer was formulated.
And we all know where that got him.
He ran up against the General Authorities of Athens who insisted on being obeyed rather than questioned.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Gatorbait
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by Gatorbait » Fri Jun 09, 2023 2:58 pm

moksha wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:04 pm
The reason Socrates was the wisest person in Athens was that he realized how little he knew, and was willing to ask questions to seek answers. He questioned the answers to understand all the ins and out of how the answer was formulated.
Too right. Thanks for the reminder noble mon.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

Cnsl1
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by Cnsl1 » Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:15 pm

I think that many TBMs feel that the only reasons people leave the church are the reasons listed in the BofM.

Namely: pride, lusts, selfishness, and being led astray by Satan.



And it came to pass that Sam, having a humble but questioning soul, did ponder upon the words of his brother Nephi, and did call upon his strength in mind and also the words of his brothers Laman and Lemuel and his goodly parents, and did weigh that which he had gathered, not as the weight of senums or senines, but rather as one would weigh those things which can be pondered and evidenced through what can be seen clearly and understood.

And it came to pass that after Sam had labored in mind for the space of many days, and had wrestled with the thoughts and the words which he had been given, yea even the words of his brother Nephi, and had spent many days searching for that which he had been told, it came to pass that Sam uttered unto himself, and to his brothers and to his goodly parents, yea even an utterance of great loudness as such he had heretofore never uttered before, saying;

Hearken unto me, my goodly parents, and my brothers Laman and Lemuel, and hear that the words of our brother Nephi are fraught with lies and untruth, for as he speaketh as with the voice of the Lord, his words do not right with which your eyes behold and see before you, even from the time we left Jerusalem until the time we sailed upon many waters and toiled in this promised land.

Behold, ye clearly see that there is no horse, nor goats, nor ass, except be that of our brother. And despite our diligence in heeding the voice of our brother, we have not smelted, nor developed steel, yea even the boat with which we sailed the many waters was not seen or touched by our hands.

And it came to pass that after Sam had uttered these words, he beheld that his brothers became like thin shrouds and his goodly parents disappeared into a mist of darkness. And his brother, Nephi, became small in stature.

And Sam left. For he was not.

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Hagoth
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:34 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:15 pm

And it came to pass that after Sam had uttered these words, he beheld that his brothers became like thin shrouds and his goodly parents disappeared into a mist of darkness. And his brother, Nephi, became small in stature.

And Sam left. For he was not.
Awesome.

If an angel appeared to the LDS parents of a child who is on the verge of losing their testimony and presented them with a remote-control-like device that said:

Press Here to do nothing and allow your child to leave the church >
Press Here to allow your child to die peacefully in their sleep, but with a testimony of the church >

How many would press the second button?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:44 am

Many of my educated and successful TBM friends fall into the TSCC's pride cycle. This is probably the biggest hurdle for them to overcome, if they ever allow themselves to fact check it. The church is true because they are in it, invested financially, emotionally and physically and would never be mislead like that. The bigger the ego the stronger the koolaid.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Hagoth
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Re: Pride works both ways.

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:03 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:44 am
The bigger the ego the stronger the koolaid.
https://youtu.be/mpbaznILT3s?t=13
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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