Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

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deacon blues
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by deacon blues » Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:52 am

The GhatGPT comments are interesting. I've been talking to my wife about AI. This gives our discussion an interesting new angle. Thanks Red for providing this perspective.
I sense that TBM's and AI have many similarities. They both have to be programmed. I'd be interested in what ChatGPT says about DNA and the BOM. :D
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:13 am

Deacon, I didn’t ask it a specific question. Just typed:

DNA and the Book of Mormon

Here’s the first response with no follow up questions.
The Book of Mormon is a religious text that tells the story of a group of Israelites who migrated to the Americas and their interactions with various indigenous peoples. There is no direct connection between DNA and the Book of Mormon, but some people have tried to use genetic evidence to support or refute its historical claims.

One of the main issues is the claim made in the Book of Mormon that the indigenous peoples of the Americas are descended from a small group of Israelites who migrated there around 600 BCE. This claim conflicts with the scientific consensus that the ancestors of the indigenous peoples of the Americas came from Asia via the Bering land bridge around 15,000 years ago.

In recent years, genetic studies have confirmed the Asian origins of Native American populations and have not found evidence of a significant genetic contribution from Israelites or other groups from the Middle East. This has led some scholars and scientists to conclude that the Book of Mormon is not a historical record of actual events but rather a religious text that should be understood in a symbolic or allegorical sense.

It's worth noting that not all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) accept the historicity of the Book of Mormon, and many see it as a spiritual text that can be interpreted in different ways. Therefore, DNA evidence does not necessarily undermine the faith of all LDS members.

In conclusion, while DNA evidence does not directly relate to the content or spiritual significance of the Book of Mormon, it does contradict some of its historical claims. As with any religious text, its interpretation and meaning are subject to individual beliefs and perspectives.
What’s interesting with all these responses is that it’s picked up the LDS moniker and lost the “Mormon” nickname and it recognizes that spiritual beliefs are an individual perspective.
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deacon blues
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by deacon blues » Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:59 am

Thanks Red, an excellent summary for a machine. ;)
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Ghost
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Ghost » Thu Apr 27, 2023 11:15 am

I've run into what sounds like apologetics as well with ChatGPT, and I've assumed it's part of the hard-coded efforts to filter its data so it never says anything that could offend anyone. Trying to get around those guardrails is kind of a fun exercise, but they have it locked down pretty well. One of the examples you hear about a lot is that it will apparently say consistently that it's better to allow nuclear annihilation than utter a racial slur.

When I was a kid, I appreciated the violence in the Book of Mormon to offset some of the more boring parts. My favorite story was Ammon cutting off the arms. At some point they apparently replaced the old Book of Mormon "comics" with a sanitized new version that no longer showed any blood. This is the version I had:

Image

What's that sword made of, I wonder?

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Hagoth
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Hagoth » Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:27 pm

Ghost wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 11:15 am
When I was a kid, I appreciated the violence in the Book of Mormon to offset some of the more boring parts. My favorite story was Ammon cutting off the arms. At some point they apparently replaced the old Book of Mormon "comics" with a sanitized new version that no longer showed any blood. This is the version I had:
Well, according to Hugh Nibley, we're reading that story all wrong. It is actually describing a Mesoamerican ball game. So your BoM comic should have looked like this:
Image
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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wtfluff
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by wtfluff » Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:05 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:27 pm
Well, according to Hugh Nibley, we're reading that story all wrong. It is actually describing a Mesoamerican ball game. So your BoM comic should have looked like this:
Image
LOL Wut???

Can you point me to a Huge Nibley reference where he mental gymnastics sheep and severed arms into a ball game?
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Red Ryder
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue May 02, 2023 8:38 am

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:05 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:27 pm
Well, according to Hugh Nibley, we're reading that story all wrong. It is actually describing a Mesoamerican ball game. So your BoM comic should have looked like this:
LOL Wut???

Can you point me to a Huge Nibley reference where he mental gymnastics sheep and severed arms into a ball game?
ChatGPT to the rescue
Hugh Nibley, a prominent scholar of the Book of Mormon, used the analogy of basketball to describe the complexity and depth of the Book of Mormon. In his book "Since Cumorah," Nibley wrote:

"The Book of Mormon is like a vast playing field on which teams of specialists pit their skills, with the whole thing watched by an army of spectators. No one can run the field alone or take the game single-handed. You need a team, and a good one at that. The roster of experts needed to cover the field is formidable, and the combined skills and energies of the players is simply amazing."

Nibley was emphasizing the point that the Book of Mormon is a complex and multi-layered text that requires a collaborative effort by scholars and experts from different fields in order to fully understand its many facets. Just as basketball requires teamwork and collaboration among players with different skills and specialties, the study of the Book of Mormon requires a diverse team of experts who can approach the text from different angles and perspectives.
I think Nibley was pulling analogies out of his hat

In his book "Approaching Zion," Hugh Nibley used the analogy of a tapestry to describe the Book of Mormon. He wrote:

"The Book of Mormon is like a tapestry, woven of many different threads, with each thread representing a different aspect of the text. Just as a tapestry is made up of many different colors, textures, and patterns, so the Book of Mormon contains a rich diversity of themes, genres, and voices. Each thread of the tapestry is essential to the whole, and together they create a masterpiece that is greater than the sum of its parts."
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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wtfluff
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by wtfluff » Tue May 02, 2023 3:22 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue May 02, 2023 8:38 am
...
I think Nibley was pulling analogies out of his hat
...
Well, he was definitely pulling analogies out of... Something.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Hagoth
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Hagoth » Wed May 03, 2023 10:00 am

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:05 pm
LOL Wut???

Can you point me to a Huge Nibley reference where he mental gymnastics sheep and severed arms into a ball game?
I don't have the reference handy, but it was in a FARMS article. Nibley specifically said the Ammon arm-hacking thing was a pretty good description of a Mesoamerican ball game.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Hagoth » Wed May 03, 2023 10:16 am

I found this from Hugh Nibley, The Prophetic Book of Mormon, p. 539-540. I don't think this is the one I was thinking of, but it demonstrates how the neatly slicing off everyone's arms doesn't sound so silly when you realize it was just a game:

"So the men had swords but only used clubs. Isn’t that odd, and isn’t it odd that those same wicked Lamanites walked around right in front of the king’s palace where everybody recognized them, and nobody did anything about it? And no one held it against the winning team that they had stolen their flocks back, but the losers were only angry with Ammon because he had thrown rocks and used his sword against men bearing only ceremonial clubs.

All this reminds us of those many ceremonial games in which the loser also lost his life, beginning with an Aztec duel in which one of the contestants was tethered by the ankle and bore only a wooden mace while his heavily armored opponent wielded a weapon with sharp obsidian edges... But the closest are those known to many of us here, namely the bloody fun of the famous basketball games played in the great ballcourts of the ceremonial complexes of Mesoamerica. In these games either the captain of the losing team or the whole team lost their heads."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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