Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

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deacon blues
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Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by deacon blues » Fri Apr 14, 2023 10:18 am

We all know the BOM is violent, but is it gratuitous violence? I'm asking from the perspective of one who believes Joseph Smith put the violence in there. Did he have reasons, conscious or unconscious, for adding violent stories? Did his experience in life, including his surgery, have anything to do with it?
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:23 am

Maybe he just read the bible?
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Hagoth
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Hagoth » Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:38 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:23 am
Maybe he just read the bible?
He was obviously trying to one-up the Bible in many ways, so he had to have at least as much violence to make it feel like it was in the same genre.
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deacon blues
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by deacon blues » Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:31 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:38 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:23 am
Maybe he just read the bible?
He was obviously trying to one-up the Bible in many ways, so he had to have at least as much violence to make it feel like it was in the same genre.
I agree with this. I see a thought process that goes like 1. The bible is scripture, 2. The bible has violence. 3. To be scripture the BOM needs to have violence.
It's too bad he had to copy all the Isaiah and Sermon on the Mount Scriptures almost word for word from the bible. :?
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Palerider » Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:10 am

I'm of the opinion the story of Shiz and Coriantumr was inspired by the Legend of Sleepy Hollow and the headless horseman. It was written in 1820 and is considered one of America's first classic spooky/horror stories. Quite popular in the culture. Joseph probably observed the general public being not a little enthralled with it. He was, after all, initially trying to write a best-seller to make money.

Mormon apologists have been trying to defend the Shiz headless "push-up" from the beginning. Science be damned.

During the French revolution (when beheading was ubiquitous) the people noticed that occasionally a severed head would blink or the face would afterwards contort slightly just for a moment. But in all those many, many choppings, no headless corpse rose up and gasped for breath.

Chickens I can see.....but humans? Nahhhhh....
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:25 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2023 11:31 am
Hagoth wrote:
Sat Apr 15, 2023 2:38 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2023 11:23 am
Maybe he just read the bible?
He was obviously trying to one-up the Bible in many ways, so he had to have at least as much violence to make it feel like it was in the same genre.
I agree with this. I see a thought process that goes like 1. The bible is scripture, 2. The bible has violence. 3. To be scripture the BOM needs to have violence.
It's too bad he had to copy all the Isaiah and Sermon on the Mount Scriptures almost word for word from the bible. :?
I'm in this camp. He learned from the train of preachers that rolled through the Finger Lakes region and learned how hyperbole can stir people up. So off he went to one up the bible, try to make everything in mormonism and the BOM look more special and grandiose than anything else at the time. All this while still trying to stay in the mainstream of Christianity, thus gleaning membership away from other religions. Mormons even culturally appropriated the chosen people thing from the jews and tried to one up that with their narrative, lost tribe bs and all that. BOM vs Bible: more wars, violence, destruction (except the global flood), deaths, supposed accuracy in translation and not just a flood (since he could not repeat that one) but all the natural disasters rolled into one. And instead of justified incest stories there were kids eating the flesh of their parents and instead of babies being slaughtered by Romans it was really righteous folks being slaughtered or burned.

It's interesting there's no polygamy in the BOM; like the other thread Red started about predator vs opportunist. I guess we really don't know when JS first started thinking about polygamy; I'm guessing at a pretty young age if the stories about his bible study are true, but he did not write it up until later in the D&C.
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Palerider » Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:36 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:25 pm


It's interesting there's no polygamy in the BOM; like the other thread Red started about predator vs opportunist. I guess we really don't know when JS first started thinking about polygamy; I'm guessing at a pretty young age if the stories about his bible study are true, but he did not write it up until later in the D&C.
I think Joseph was contemplating polygamy early on. He spent quite a bit of time calling out David and Solomon in Jacob 2 stating that the Lord condemns having many wives but then he cracks open the door for polygamy in verse 30 where he says:

" 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."

So yeah, have only one wife until I tell you differently. It is implied. I believe there were a number of start up sects in Joseph's area that promoted free love or wife sharing IIRC. So I think he was at a minimum, thinking about it early on.
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:06 am

Palerider wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:36 pm
I think Joseph was contemplating polygamy early on. He spent quite a bit of time calling out David and Solomon in Jacob 2 stating that the Lord condemns having many wives but then he cracks open the door for polygamy in verse 30 where he says:

" 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."

So yeah, have only one wife until I tell you differently. It is implied. I believe there were a number of start up sects in Joseph's area that promoted free love or wife sharing IIRC. So I think he was at a minimum, thinking about it early on.

Does anyone know if that "If god commanded it" exemption clause was in the original text of the BoM? Or was it something added as part of the "re-editing" the occurred over the JS years to update the book to his evolving theology?
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Palerider » Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:03 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:06 am


Does anyone know if that "If god commanded it" exemption clause was in the original text of the BoM? Or was it something added as part of the "re-editing" the occurred over the JS years to update the book to his evolving theology?
Just checked. Original text reads the same.

https://bookofmormoncentral.org/content ... liest-text
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Just This Guy » Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:20 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:03 pm
Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 5:06 am


Does anyone know if that "If god commanded it" exemption clause was in the original text of the BoM? Or was it something added as part of the "re-editing" the occurred over the JS years to update the book to his evolving theology?
Just checked. Original text reads the same.

https://bookofmormoncentral.org/content ... liest-text
Thanks. Interesting that he wrote in the exception from the beginning.
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Apr 23, 2023 4:52 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:20 pm
Interesting that he wrote in the exception from the beginning.
But if he had really been on his game he would have also added the underage girl exception clause.
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Angel » Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:46 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:25 pm

It's interesting there's no polygamy in the BOM;
Simple, no females were really written about. Who cares about girls? Nothing worth saying anything about at all.
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:49 am

Angel wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:46 pm
RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:25 pm

It's interesting there's no polygamy in the BOM;
Simple, no females were really written about. Who cares about girls? Nothing worth saying anything about at all.
Unless she was a really beautiful well known harlot. JS seems to be a bit preoccupied with that at times.
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:04 am

I asked ChatGPT to explain the violence.

I’m a bit surprised it sounds like an apologist!
As an AI language model, I do not hold personal beliefs or opinions, but I can provide some information on the subject.

The Book of Mormon is a religious text that tells the story of a group of Israelites who migrated to the Americas and their interactions with the indigenous people there. The book includes accounts of wars, conflicts, and other violent acts that occurred among these groups. Some readers may find the level of violence in the book gratuitous or excessive.

However, it's important to understand the context in which the book was written. The Book of Mormon is considered to be a sacred text by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), and it is believed to have been translated by the prophet Joseph Smith in the early 19th century. The violence described in the book is presented as historical events that occurred among real people, and some believers may view it as a demonstration of God's justice or the consequences of disobedience to his commandments.

It's also worth noting that violence is not unique to the Book of Mormon. Many religious texts, including the Bible and the Quran, contain accounts of violence and war. Some scholars argue that these stories may serve as cautionary tales or illustrate the consequences of sinful behavior.

Ultimately, the interpretation of the violence in the Book of Mormon is a matter of personal belief and perspective. While some readers may find it excessive or gratuitous, others may see it as an important part of the book's message.
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by wtfluff » Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:56 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:04 am
I asked ChatGPT to explain the violence.

I’m a bit surprised it sounds like an apologist!
...
I'd take ChatGPT spewing apologetic rhetoric as a testament that the (VERY LARGE) amount of tithing dollar$ spent on Search Engine Optimization is actually working to LD$-Inc.'s favor.

There's gotta be a way to tell the ChatBot to dig deeper than the first page of it's search results, right? :evil:
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Palerider » Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:53 pm

The thing to ask is if there is any archeological evidence for the great wars that are fought in the BoM. It would be interesting to see how they get around that.
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:00 pm

Palerider wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:53 pm
The thing to ask is if there is any archeological evidence for the great wars that are fought in the BoM. It would be interesting to see how they get around that.
Here’s what it says:
The question of whether there is archaeological evidence for the great wars described in the Book of Mormon is a controversial and debated topic. Some scholars and believers in the Book of Mormon believe that there is evidence that supports the events described in the book, while others argue that there is no scientific evidence to support its claims.

The Book of Mormon describes several large-scale battles and conflicts that took place in the Americas between the Nephites and the Lamanites, two groups of people that the book claims were descendants of Israelites who migrated to the Americas around 600 BC.

However, despite decades of archaeological research in the Americas, no direct archaeological evidence has been found to support the Book of Mormon's claims of large-scale battles and civilizations existing during the time period described in the book.

While there are some sites and artifacts that some people have claimed support the Book of Mormon's claims, these claims are widely disputed by mainstream archaeologists and historians.

In conclusion, the archaeological evidence for the great wars described in the Book of Mormon is a controversial and debated topic, and the current scientific consensus is that there is no direct evidence to support the book's claims.
I asked it to explain why it’s controversial.
The controversy surrounding the archaeological evidence for the great wars described in the Book of Mormon stems from a number of factors, including:

Lack of direct evidence:
Despite decades of archaeological research in the Americas, there is no direct archaeological evidence that supports the claims made in the Book of Mormon. This has led many scholars to question the validity of the book's historical claims.

Alternative theories:
Some scholars have proposed alternative theories to explain the origins of the peoples and civilizations described in the Book of Mormon. For example, some suggest that the Book of Mormon's stories may have been influenced by Native American mythology, or that the book was based on the ideas and beliefs of its author, Joseph Smith.

Religious beliefs:
The Book of Mormon is a religious text that is considered to be sacred by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). For many believers, the book's historical claims are an essential part of their faith, and any challenges to these claims can be seen as a threat to their religious beliefs.

Political and social implications:
The controversy surrounding the Book of Mormon's historical claims can also have political and social implications. For example, some critics have argued that the book's portrayal of Native Americans as descendants of Israelites has contributed to harmful stereotypes and discrimination against indigenous peoples in the Americas.
Overall, the controversy surrounding the archaeological evidence for the great wars described in the Book of Mormon is complex and multifaceted, and reflects a range of perspectives and beliefs about the book's historical accuracy and significance.
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:10 pm

To keep with the topic of violence, I asked it why Nephi cut off Laban’s head?
In the Book of Mormon, there is a story in which God asks Nephi to kill a man named Laban and take the brass plates from him. This story is described in 1 Nephi, chapters 3 and 4.

According to the Book of Mormon, the brass plates contained important religious and historical records that Nephi's family needed to have in order to preserve their faith and culture. Nephi's father had asked him and his brothers to retrieve the plates from Laban, who was a wealthy and powerful man in Jerusalem.

When Nephi first approached Laban and asked him to give him the plates, Laban became angry and refused. Nephi then had a vision in which God told him to kill Laban and take the plates. Nephi was hesitant to carry out this commandment, but eventually, he was able to get close enough to Laban to kill him and take the plates.

The story of Nephi and Laban is a difficult one, and many readers of the Book of Mormon have struggled to understand why God would ask someone to commit murder. Some interpretations suggest that this story should be understood as an extreme example of obedience to God's commandments, and that Nephi's actions were necessary in order to preserve his family's faith and culture.

Others have argued that the story of Nephi and Laban should be understood as a metaphorical representation of the struggle between good and evil, and that Nephi's actions symbolize the need to overcome the power of the wicked and the corrupt in order to achieve spiritual enlightenment and salvation.

Overall, the story of Nephi and Laban is a complex and challenging one, and interpretations of its meaning and significance may vary depending on individual beliefs and perspectives.
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Red Ryder
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:23 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:56 am
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:04 am
I asked ChatGPT to explain the violence.

I’m a bit surprised it sounds like an apologist!
...
I'd take ChatGPT spewing apologetic rhetoric as a testament that the (VERY LARGE) amount of tithing dollar$ spent on Search Engine Optimization is actually working to LD$-Inc.'s favor.

There's gotta be a way to tell the ChatBot to dig deeper than the first page of it's search results, right? :evil:
Yup! Here’s a perfect example involving the pantaloons.

While it is true that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, the practice of wearing temple garments did not begin until after his death, and the garments were not widely worn by members of the LDS Church until the late 19th century. Additionally, there is no reliable historical record or firsthand account to suggest that Joseph Smith used temple garments to distinguish between his wives.

It's important to be cautious about accepting unfounded claims or rumors as fact, especially when it comes to sensitive topics like religion and history. The practice of polygamy in early Mormonism is a complex and controversial topic, and there are many misconceptions and myths surrounding it. It's always a good idea to seek out reliable sources and credible evidence when trying to learn about historical events and religious practices.
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wtfluff
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Re: Gratuitous violence in the BOM?

Post by wtfluff » Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:37 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:23 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:56 am
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:04 am
I asked ChatGPT to explain the violence.

I’m a bit surprised it sounds like an apologist!
...
I'd take ChatGPT spewing apologetic rhetoric as a testament that the (VERY LARGE) amount of tithing dollar$ spent on Search Engine Optimization is actually working to LD$-Inc.'s favor.

There's gotta be a way to tell the ChatBot to dig deeper than the first page of it's search results, right? :evil:
Yup! Here’s a perfect example involving the pantaloons.

While it is true that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, the practice of wearing temple garments did not begin until after his death, and the garments were not widely worn by members of the LDS Church until the late 19th century. Additionally, there is no reliable historical record or firsthand account to suggest that Joseph Smith used temple garments to distinguish between his wives.

It's important to be cautious about accepting unfounded claims or rumors as fact, especially when it comes to sensitive topics like religion and history. The practice of polygamy in early Mormonism is a complex and controversial topic, and there are many misconceptions and myths surrounding it. It's always a good idea to seek out reliable sources and credible evidence when trying to learn about historical events and religious practices.
Dear Zeus!

I'm at a loss for words. GhatGPT is a sentient, believing MORmON; Able to perform incredible feats of mental gymnastics in milliseconds.
Last edited by wtfluff on Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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