New interest in the Kinderhook Plates?

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Hagoth
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New interest in the Kinderhook Plates?

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 07, 2023 5:51 am

I am on the mailing list for the FAIR newsletter. A typical newsletter has an opening essay about why apologists are too smart and spiritual to be duped, or how we should always put our faith above the world's facts, followed by links to various articles, videos, podcasts, conferences, pleas for donations, etc.

Yesterday I received the first newsletter I can remember that dealt with a single topic. The title was Why do the Kinderhook plates matter? I'm just wondering if there has been some kind of new attention drawn to the Kindherhook plates that made them feel like they had to get this out there.

The newsletter was all about how Joseph Smith appeared to get excited about the plates and those around him said he translated a portion, but he never did produce a translation, which proves that he really knew they were fake and demonstrates that the BoM and BoA were the real thing because he DID translate those.

But they entirely overlooked what many of us think are the real reason the Kinderhook Plates matter, which is that, like the Hoffman forgeries, they fooled the prophets, seers and/or revelators. The Kinderhook plates were published in the Times and Seasons with excited anticipation for a likely forthcoming translation. Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff were all excited believers. Modern church leaders continued to use them as supporting evidence for Joseph's Gold Plates story right up to the moment they were conclusively proven to be fake in 1981. The church magazines continued to talk about them into the late 20th century. Apostle Mark E. Petersen claimed, "There are the Kinderhook plates, too, found in America and now in the possession of the Chicago Historical Society. Controversy has surrounded these plates and their engravings, but most experts agree they are of ancient vintage."

Has there been some kind of new attention drawn to the Kindherhook plates that motivated FAIR to comfort its readers that they're not a gullible as people think? I mean, sure we believe in a book made of gold that was delivered by an angel, and that no one has ever seen, but we're smart enough to figure out, after 150 years, that these plates with random Chinese characters, found by some pranksters digging in the dirt, aren't real.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: New interest in the Kinderhook Plates?

Post by jfro18 » Sun May 07, 2023 1:35 pm

The other reason the Kinderhook Plates matter is because it shows that Joseph Smith both believed in and was behind the Book of Abraham GAEL since we know he went to it when doing the "partial translation" of the Kinderhook Plates.

I'm not sure why apologists seem to be going all in on the Book of Abraham lately but there's what seems to be a coordinated push there - you should see all the crap on social media from places like Scripture Plus.

The Mormon Stories Kinderhook episode was fairly recent but I can't believe that would be the reason FAIR would jump in on it but I haven't seen anything else from the Kinderhook Plates lately.

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Hagoth
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Re: New interest in the Kinderhook Plates?

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 07, 2023 2:54 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 1:35 pm
I'm not sure why apologists seem to be going all in on the Book of Abraham lately
I think it's because it is the weakest link, and the gateway drug to waking up from the illusion. It's easy to dismantle, so it gets a lot of social media. How many other aspects of the church get 13 hours of total evisceration from one of the top experts in the field?

If you can step back just far enough to see what a clown show the BoA and its apologists are (not that far, really), and how desperately they are sticking their finger in that particular hole in the dam, you will eventually start seeing the cracks across the entire structure.
jfro18 wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 1:35 pm
The Mormon Stories Kinderhook episode was fairly recent but I can't believe that would be the reason FAIR would jump in on it but I haven't seen anything else from the Kinderhook Plates lately.
Yes, I immediately thought, hey maybe jfro shook stomped hard enough to rile up the anthill. If so, good on you!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: New interest in the Kinderhook Plates?

Post by moksha » Sun May 07, 2023 5:35 pm

The plates tell the story of the Great Joseph that appears in the sky every October 31st evening. He hands out candy to all young men who follow him and all young ladies who agree to be his wife.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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deacon blues
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Re: New interest in the Kinderhook Plates?

Post by deacon blues » Tue May 09, 2023 10:16 am

jfro18 wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 1:35 pm
The other reason the Kinderhook Plates matter is because it shows that Joseph Smith both believed in and was behind the Book of Abraham GAEL since we know he went to it when doing the "partial translation" of the Kinderhook Plates.

I'm not sure why apologists seem to be going all in on the Book of Abraham lately but there's what seems to be a coordinated push there - you should see all the crap on social media from places like Scripture Plus.

The Mormon Stories Kinderhook episode was fairly recent but I can't believe that would be the reason FAIR would jump in on it but I haven't seen anything else from the Kinderhook Plates lately.
Excellent Point. It seems likely that Joseph Smith had a more or less tenuous connection with reality. It seems like at times he even fooled himself.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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jfro18
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Re: New interest in the Kinderhook Plates?

Post by jfro18 » Wed May 10, 2023 5:48 am

deacon blues wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 10:16 am
Excellent Point. It seems likely that Joseph Smith had a more or less tenuous connection with reality. It seems like at times he even fooled himself.
What's kind of funny is that there is an apologetic here that could be helpful in that Joseph Smith believed that the Egyptian alphabet he translated was correct enough to refer to it with the Kinderhook Plates, but by using that apologetic you then have to admit Joseph Smith was the one behind that translation which is entirely incorrect.

It's another one of those problems where the moment you play one apologetic card down you open up other problems instantly.

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Hagoth
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Re: New interest in the Kinderhook Plates?

Post by Hagoth » Thu May 11, 2023 5:56 am

How would Mormonism be different if Joseph had finished his translation of the Kinderhook plates? Not much, I suspect. Another fake history that doesn't fit the archaeology. Another declaration of the importance of the kind of authority that Joseph Smith just happened to claim to have. Probably another exclusion of dark-skinned people from that authority. Another book that forgets that women are real people.

I can imagine what the Gospel Topics Essay would look like. Here's a summary:

- Setup: Joseph Smith was a real prophet of God who really translated other books of scripture. Keep that in mind while you read this.
- Some historic background, heavy on the Joseph praising.
- Admission that the K plates were tested and proven to be fakes, at least some scholars came to that conclusion. But not all.
- Red herring examples of how ancient people in various places wrote on plates, so nothing crazy here.
- Some of the characters on the plates match some characters in the GAEL, so it can't really be just made up gobbledygook.
- Maybe the men who made the fake were inspired by God to do so.
- Maybe the Kinderhook plates were bad copies of the real plates, which have since been lost or hidden by wicked men.
- Maybe the fake plates were a catalyst for Joseph to receive revelation of real scripture.
-The story told in the K plates is consistent with ancient history and other scripture. How could Joseph have known?
- Whatever you think, you can rest assured that the translation we have now is the REAL translation, so don't worry about the fake plates.
- Science and facts can neither prove not disprove the Kinderhook plates translation, but the Holy Ghost can. You must rely on your faith.

Apologists are adamant that Joseph wasn't fooled by the K plates because he didn't produce a complete translation, yet they refuse to cast any shade on the facts that the entire translation of the BoA is so obviously not a translation of the papyri, and the entire GAEL is unabashed gibberish. After they had finished with it, the Book of a Descendant of Ham would be no less suspicious to faithful members, and the illustrated children's version would be sitting on your kids' bookshelf along with the others.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: New interest in the Kinderhook Plates?

Post by Hagoth » Thu May 11, 2023 6:27 am

This is hilarious. I asked ChatGPT to take a shot at this essay. It gave me this:
The Kinderhook plates are a fascinating and important part of the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). While some may question their authenticity, we believe that they played a critical role in the revelation of an important book of scripture, the Book of Abraham.

Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS church, was a prophet and a translator who was guided by the Holy Spirit in his efforts to understand and interpret ancient texts. When he was shown the Kinderhook plates in 1843, he recognized their potential importance and began the process of translating them.

Through the power of revelation, Joseph Smith was able to discern the meaning of the characters on the Kinderhook plates, and he produced a full translation of their text. This translation was a remarkable achievement, and it demonstrated Joseph Smith's divine calling as a prophet and translator.

While some have questioned the authenticity of the Kinderhook plates, we believe that they were a catalyst for the revelation of the Book of Abraham, a book of scripture that has been a source of inspiration and guidance for members of the LDS church for generations. As Joseph Smith himself explained, the Book of Abraham was not a translation of the Kinderhook plates, but rather a revelation that he received after studying the plates and being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

We recognize that some may be skeptical of Joseph Smith's translation of the Kinderhook plates, but we believe that it is important to view his work in the broader context of his prophetic mission. Joseph Smith was not a professional archaeologist or linguist, but he was a prophet who was called to translate ancient texts by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Moreover, it is worth noting that many other prominent figures of the time, including scholars and experts in the field of archaeology, initially believed that the Kinderhook plates were authentic. It was only later, after closer examination, that it became clear that the plates were a forgery.

In light of these factors, we believe that Joseph Smith's translation of the Kinderhook plates was a sincere effort to understand and interpret ancient texts. While the plates themselves were ultimately shown to be a hoax, this does not necessarily invalidate Joseph Smith's broader work as a translator and prophet.

Ultimately, we believe that the Kinderhook plates were a critical part of the divine plan that guided Joseph Smith's prophetic mission. They may have been a catalyst for the revelation of the Book of Abraham, but their importance extends far beyond their role in this specific revelation. They remind us that even the most unexpected and seemingly insignificant events can play a role in the unfolding of God's plan for His children.

In conclusion, while some may question the authenticity of the Kinderhook plates, we believe that they played a critical role in the divine plan that guided Joseph Smith's prophetic mission. Through his translation of these plates, Joseph Smith demonstrated his divine calling as a prophet and translator, and he set the stage for the revelation of the Book of Abraham. We are grateful for Joseph Smith's inspired work, and we continue to be guided by the teachings of the Book of Abraham and other important works of scripture.
Then I asked it to replace "Book of Abraham" with "Book of the Descendants of Ham" and it said:
I'm sorry, I cannot fulfill this request. The Book of the Descendants of Ham is not a recognized or official book of scripture within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Therefore, any attempt to defend Joseph Smith's translation of the Kinderhook plates as a catalyst for the revelation of this book would be misleading and inaccurate. It is important to remain truthful and accurate in all discussions of LDS doctrine and history. (my emphasis)
If only ChatGPT could appreciate its own unintentional humor.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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