Reasons to resign

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Angel
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Reasons to resign

Post by Angel » Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:34 am

"We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.” - CSLewis
  • Differences in beliefs
    Moral/ethical concerns
    Concerns for wellbeing of family members
    Lack of engagement, not fulfilling
    Need for spiritual exploration
    Need for honesty, stop living a lie
Has anyone used a decision table?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_table

Open excel, one column lists goals, grade goals on how important each is. Next, list brainstormed ideas. Grade each idea for each goal. Talley points.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Palerider
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Palerider » Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:10 am

Number 1. The church is phony and dishonest.

Number 2. I resigned because as long as you are a member of record, the church usurps to itself the privilege of dealing with you how they see fit and on their terms......not yours.

I'm a hunter, thus the following analogy. The church is like a bull elk that is constantly sniffing up the fanny of a cow elk (member) to see if she's ready to mate. Always following. Waiting for submission and a good time. Being disrespectful. Constantly checking. The only way to stop that behavior is to decisively convince the confused bull that he's sniffing up the backside of a grizzly bear, not a cow elk.

Surprise... ;)

I deal with the church on my terms. Not on theirs.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Angel
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Angel » Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:25 am

Palerider wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:10 am
The only way to stop that behavior is to decisively convince the confused bull that he's sniffing up the backside of a grizzly bear
Lol Palerider. I have a bear-paw tattoo on my back - momma bear :). I resigned pretty quickly after the detective called.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Gatorbait
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Gatorbait » Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:56 am

This is sort of a loaded question of the earlier post "reason not to resign".

First of all, I said before and I will say it now, I think it is pointless to resign, and I am speaking for myself only here. It's not worth the effort, and it's sort of fun when some dip-stick tries to sniff your ass as Palerider said earlier. Let then sniff, and kiss it whilst they are at it. They soon find out where I stand, and few want to joust with me. Get knocked off their horse in a most embarrassing way. Not worth to them.

Still a lot of good people in the church and a lot are worth respecting and letting them think whatever they please without push-back from me. I learned early on, as I trust most of you have, that pointing out errors, half-truths, lies, and the list is long- they don't care. They just don't care, and they sure as hell do not wish to have you think they do. Heaven forbid- judgement time is coming soon...bla bla bla.

Not really sure if there is such a thing, at least for me, to deal with the church on my terms. Wish I could say I can, but it would be a lie. Too much mormon stain on me and it's never going to wash out so why try. Not worth the effort.

I'm known for not caring what other people think of me, but I do care. I do. No one wants people to think that they are an a**hole. Not really.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

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nibbler
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by nibbler » Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:15 pm

"We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.” - CSLewis
"Stop liking what I don't like!" -CSLewis
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

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moksha
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by moksha » Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:27 am

Some of us have a compelling reason to remain on record but disengaged.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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hiding in plain sight
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by hiding in plain sight » Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:35 am

Evan after 13 years after waking up, I still attend. Hold a calling. I am currently in the EQP. Even though I only attend about 25% of the time. In fact the bishop came up to me and my wife on sunday. The first time in about a month that we were physically in attendance and mentioned he hadn't seen us for a while. We used that as an opportunity to share with him the trips we had planned. The family events we would be participating. To manage expectations to get used to that.

But we still love our community. Not Utah. We have great friends in the ward who share much of our worldview and we love to do things with. It is a very open and inclusive community, so we are okay.

At this point none of our kids are in the church. None of our grandkids will ever be baptized a member. So there isn't much to keep us in.

But my once TBM wife, who is now fully independent spiritually from the church feels called to be there, as we can, to create safe space for those on the margins. Especially those in the LGBTQ+ community. So we continue. On our own terms.

But our reason to leave will be when we are no longer in a safe and more inclusive ward/stake. When her/our attempts to create safe space for others put a target on our back for retaliation.

The church has no power over us at this point. I am so grateful my wife came along on the journey.

That is when we will resign. And if not resign, cut out the last 25% of attendance.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:23 pm

hiding in plain sight wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:35 am

But my once TBM wife, who is now fully independent spiritually from the church feels called to be there, as we can, to create safe space for those on the margins. Especially those in the LGBTQ+ community. So we continue. On our own terms.

But our reason to leave will be when we are no longer in a safe and more inclusive ward/stake. When her/our attempts to create safe space for others put a target on our back for retaliation.

The church has no power over us at this point. I am so grateful my wife came along on the journey.

That is when we will resign. And if not resign, cut out the last 25% of attendance.
I love this. Spiritually independent of the church!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Angel
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Angel » Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:22 am

Gatorbait wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:56 am
Too much mormon stain on me and it's never going to wash out so why try. Not worth the effort.

I'm known for not caring what other people think of me, but I do care. I do. No one wants people to think that they are an a**hole. Not really.
It's unique for all of us, sorry if I hit a nerve. The other thread, it hit one of my nerves. For me, to embrace a new beginning - I need to believe our identity lies beyond the labels and narratives that have shaped our experiences. To detach ourselves from the stories of victimhood, to throw off pain and trauma - reclaiming our inherent worthiness and embracing our potential, to evolve, change =freedom, to walk away from abusive circumstances and forge a path toward healing and freedom.

The kids who were abused, several are now LGBTQ - some have found freedom, others still trapped. Those in the cult - I can't see them as good or kind - grooming isn't kind they are all trapped. It takes a tribe to abuse kids, not just one bad apple, the entire leadership knew it, sustained him to bishopric, kept silent - sick heirarchies - I'll culture - it takes a tribe to enforce sexism. The ghost of polygamy, founded by pedophile, still hiding pedophiles, racism, abuse - under fake smiles.

Because of my experience it is difficult for me to understand those who stay.

In my mind, it is like seeing someone drowning - my instinct is to jump in and pull everyone out. I know freedom comes from within though. I can't save any adults, that is the season of life to find inner strength.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Angel
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Angel » Wed Jun 14, 2023 9:00 am

"Latter-day Saints ranked first among members of different faiths who had thought about leaving their religion, at 24%. Data courtesy of PRRI's 2022 Health of Congregations survey

https://religionnews.com/2023/05/19/one ... tudy-shows

and other trends
https://www.prri.org/research/religion- ... -upheaval/
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Gatorbait
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Gatorbait » Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:56 pm

Angel wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:22 am
Gatorbait wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:56 am
Too much mormon stain on me and it's never going to wash out so why try. Not worth the effort.

I'm known for not caring what other people think of me, but I do care. I do. No one wants people to think that they are an a**hole. Not really.
It's unique for all of us, sorry if I hit a nerve. The other thread, it hit one of my nerves. For me, to embrace a new beginning - I need to believe our identity lies beyond the labels and narratives that have shaped our experiences. To detach ourselves from the stories of victimhood, to throw off pain and trauma - reclaiming our inherent worthiness and embracing our potential, to evolve, change =freedom, to walk away from abusive circumstances and forge a path toward healing and freedom.

The kids who were abused, several are now LGBTQ - some have found freedom, others still trapped. Those in the cult - I can't see them as good or kind - grooming isn't kind they are all trapped. It takes a tribe to abuse kids, not just one bad apple, the entire leadership knew it, sustained him to bishopric, kept silent - sick heirarchies - I'll culture - it takes a tribe to enforce sexism. The ghost of polygamy, founded by pedophile, still hiding pedophiles, racism, abuse - under fake smiles.

Because of my experience it is difficult for me to understand those who stay.

In my mind, it is like seeing someone drowning - my instinct is to jump in and pull everyone out. I know freedom comes from within though. I can't save any adults, that is the season of life to find inner strength.
I like all the points you've raised here but feel that your last paragraph is particularly powerful and I admire you for your insight. Points well taken noble one. The new beginning- I like that part as well. Hope it works for you, and I must say you are one of the lucky ones if it does.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

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Angel
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Angel » Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:54 am

Gatorbait wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:56 pm

I like all the points you've raised here but feel that your last paragraph is particularly powerful and I admire you for your insight. Points well taken noble one. The new beginning- I like that part as well. Hope it works for you, and I must say you are one of the lucky ones if it does.
Awww, thanks Gatorbait. Looking at https://www.prri.org/research/religion- ... -upheaval/ I know most people - 56% leave over different beliefs, only 18% from traumatic event. I do not talk in public about the abuse as victim blaming is real, it's ripping a new one for the kids/young adults every time someone talks about it, and there is a tendency to dismiss comments from those who have been through bad events. It would be like listening to someone whose family died in a car accident talk about how dangerous cars are - you feel bad for them, you understand why they don't like cars, but their bad experience doesn't stop you from jumping into a car and driving around, believing for you cars are safe, believing you will not get in an accident like they did.

Inner strength - inner authority - from codependency and reliance on others for self-worth and identity, to standing on your own two feet. “A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of the branch breaking, because her trust is not on the branch but on it's own wings."

Scandals, trauma, politics - vs. those whose family was never religious, balanced educated background, those who are level-headed, stable, no weirdness - I want to be in that second camp. It's more convincing to praise/demonstrate the health benefits of riding a bike - than fear-mongering/dwelling about something like a horrific car accident.

carrot and stick - so here's the carrot. My marriage is better. My kids and I have a closer relationship now. Parents & extended family - I'm the one connecting great-grandma to her LGBTQ kids right now, I'm the stable level-headed one of the pack. I get an amazing career (for females in the church, hard to come by), I'm lead faculty working with amazing students who are turning their life around. (low-income minority/immigrant serving school).

Where will you go?

Follow the crowd and lose your soul.
Follow your soul and lose the crowd.
Do not fear the process of isolation - the process of finding yourself....
for soon your soul tribe will appear :)
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:18 am

Angel wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:34 am
Has anyone used a decision table?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_table
I started. First line was "truth claims hold up to critical thinking?"
That's as far as I got.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Angel
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Angel » Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:16 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:18 am
Angel wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:34 am
Has anyone used a decision table?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_table
I started. First line was "truth claims hold up to critical thinking?"
That's as far as I got.
wiki wasn't the best link - here is a simpler example:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =692291702

The engineering method:
1. define the problem. This is where we are.
2. State your goals. This is where we want to be. (column of working criteria, first column and how important each item is)
3. research.
4. Brainstorm solutions - could do this, or could do that - rules of brainstorming, the wilder the ideas better the better - no criticism allowed, quantity NOT quality stage of the game.
5. Analyze ideas, combine similar ideas
6. test a few ideas
7. Decide. → decision table. rate and rank each idea for each goal - good with this, not good with that, but how important was that goal anyways?
8. communicate your decision
9. commercialize - implement - actually build the thing (engineering), make it happen.
10. review - start building version 2.0

:)

Sitting here drinking coffee... in comfy undies... looking forward to a nice weekend?

Once there lived a village of creatures along the bottom of a great crystal river. The current of the river swept silently over them all - young and old, rich and poor, good and evil, the current going its own way, knowing only its own crystal self.
Each creature in its own manner clung tightly to the twigs and rocks at the river bottom, for clinging was their way of life, and resisting the current what each had learned from birth.
But one creature said at last, 'I am tired of clinging. Though I cannot see it with my eyes, I trust that the current knows where it is going. I shall let go, and let it take me where it will. Clinging, I shall die of boredom.'
The other creatures laughed and said, 'Fool! Let go, and that current you worship will throw you tumbled and smashed across the rocks, and you shall die quicker than boredom!'
But the one heeded them not, and taking a breath did let go, and at once was tumbled and smashed by the current across the rocks.
Yet in time, as the creature refused to cling again, the current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised and hurt no more.
And the creatures downstream, to whom he was a stranger, cried, 'See a miracle! A creature like ourselves, yet he flies! See the Messiah, come to save us all!'
And the one carried in the current said, 'I am no more Messiah than you. The river delights to lift us free, if only we dare let go. Our true work is this voyage, this adventure.'
But they cried the more, 'Saviour!' all the while clinging to the rocks, and when they looked again he was gone, and they were left alone making legends of a Saviour.
-- Richard Bach, from "Illusions"
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:55 am

Angel wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:16 am
... the current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised and hurt no more.
I love this.
I let go of Elder Holland's lifeboat and surrendered myself to the storm, and in doing so I realized that the storm was an illusion created by Elder Holland and friends jumping up and down in the boat. Now I'm waterskiing.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:30 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:55 am
Angel wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:16 am
... the current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised and hurt no more.
I love this.
I let go of Elder Holland's lifeboat and surrendered myself to the storm, and in doing so I realized that the storm was an illusion created by Elder Holland and friends jumping up and down in the boat. Now I'm waterskiing.
Oh yes! The ole jump and humpski!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Angel
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Angel » Fri Jun 16, 2023 8:49 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 11:55 am
Angel wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:16 am
... the current lifted him free from the bottom, and he was bruised and hurt no more.
I love this.
I let go of Elder Holland's lifeboat and surrendered myself to the storm, and in doing so I realized that the storm was an illusion created by Elder Holland and friends jumping up and down in the boat. Now I'm waterskiing.
taking a breath did let go, and at once was tumbled and smashed by the current across the rocks.
Yet in time...

Dream interpretation time - I dreamed a dream. In the dream, I was sitting on a horse watching over a flock of sheep - not my sheep, I was some hired hand. We were in a field surrounded by a forest, and there was a bad vibe coming out of the woods, like a bear or some monster was going to be coming from the woods. In the dream, the sun started setting, and it was time to herd the sheep into a little pen in the field. The sheep knew the routine, all started heading over to the pen - I felt worthless, they did not need me for anything, they went on their own to their pen. The pen was rickety - not a sturdy rock wall or anything, just a split-rail fence, absolutely no protection at all against anything. The sheep go in this frail pen and I am left alone on the other side of the fence. I feel really alone - it is now dark out, and I am kind of jealous of the sheep all cuddled up in their cute little family groups. I become very aware that I am not a sheep. I am a different species of animal. I'm a person, on a horse. I feel no attachment to the sheep, I'm not one of them, just some bystander - I leave them, and head to the woods myself. The woods are beautiful, nothing to be scared of. There are no monsters. I still feel alone, but feel at home in the woods, under the stars.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Flaming Meaux
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Re: Reasons to resign

Post by Flaming Meaux » Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:57 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:27 am
Some of us have a compelling reason to remain on record but disengaged.
I've not identified as Mormon for more than 15 years at this point, but I never resigned. I don't have a particularly compelling reason to remain on the records, but I always thought it odd that, in order to show that I was no longer a member of the faith or to show that I no longer recognized the faith's authority over me, that I'd jump through all of their artificially created hoops to 'prove' that they don't have the authority to tell me what to do.

Yeah, occasionally I show up on a system somewhere and some newly-appointed zealous EQP or bishopric member will reach out to 'find out my story.' I've found that when I clearly state that I don't identify as Mormon and that I'm not absent on Sundays because I want to sleep in, or golf, or play sports, or because I was offended, or whatever, but rather I'm absent because I don't actually believe what is being taught there, that they get the message. At this stage I think my record must have been sufficiently notated that I haven't got even an interaction like that in at least 5 years.
"The truth knocks on the door and you say, 'Go away, I'm looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling." -- Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

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