Will race and ethnicity follow us into the afterlife?

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Red Ryder
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Will race and ethnicity follow us into the afterlife?

Post by Red Ryder » Sun Aug 06, 2023 6:39 pm

Will race and ethnicity follow us after we die?

Or is race and ethnicity just a mortal identification?

What position does the LDS church take?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

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alas
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Re: Will race and ethnicity follow us into the afterlife?

Post by alas » Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:42 am

What position did the church take when? See, it has pretty much unofficially changed. 40-60 years ago it was taught that we would all be white in the resurrection. Now they have figured out that is pretty offensive and quietly stopped teaching that and you may even find people now who claim we never did.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Will race and ethnicity follow us into the afterlife?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Aug 07, 2023 9:29 am

alas wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 7:42 am
What position did the church take when? See, it has pretty much unofficially changed. 40-60 years ago it was taught that we would all be white in the resurrection. Now they have figured out that is pretty offensive and quietly stopped teaching that and you may even find people now who claim we never did.
I see your point. The family discussion that stirred this comment got pretty defensive pretty quick. The go to answer was reference to the scriptures where dark skin was considered a curse. I pointed out that the church recently made a statement disavowing this. Then went back and asked how the curse makes any sense from a world perspective, asking if this meant middle easterners, Asians, Latinos, and Africans were all cursed. At this point, one family member spoke out saying that geographical location was also part of the change. I asked if they were suggesting evolution was at play and they quickly retreated. I pointed out that 6,000 years probably wasn’t a long enough time, but my tongue in cheek response didn’t land.

The discussion then turned to what constitutes doctrine which then turned into a testimony that doctrine never changes. I pointed out polygamy was doctrine at one point. Response back was that it needed to be restored and that was completed therefore no longer practiced. I pointed out “on earth”. Then more jostling back and forth about policy and practices can change as the restoration was ongoing. I agreed that if we are going to accept an “ongoing restoration” then we have to accept that doctrines can change. They were hell bent that doctrine can’t change, that any change was considered policy and practice.

It’s exhausting trying to have a reasonable discussion.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

Gatorbait
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Re: Will race and ethnicity follow us into the afterlife?

Post by Gatorbait » Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:33 pm

What a great topic. Thank you Red Ryder.

Had a Navajo foster sister who was one of the last group with the church sponsored Indian Placement Program. I've kept close to her throughout these almost 45 years. She was and is a deep thinker and I'd consider her one who would be a reliable sound source. She had a near death experience where she saw and spoke to some of her ancestors. She said that they were all "brown and delightsome". Looked to be in their prime. Her dad and grandfather seemed to be about the same age. She conversed with them in Navajo, a language that she was not and is not fluent in. She said that she could speak fluent Navajo for about two weeks after the NDE, but can no longer speak it now.

My take from that that her story has some merit. Her dad had died about a year before her NDE. She was not at all close to her dad. He pretty much abandoned her mom and her sisters and herself during her growing up years. She did not see much of him until after she had entered into adulthood, mostly when he asked for a hand out. Yet her discussions with her dad and grandparents during the NDE were that of love, and hope. Her dad took the lead, advising her to try harder to help her sisters get along and for her to forgive and forget her grievances with them and to tell them that they were loved.

I don't have any idea if there is an afterlife. I've no opinion of skin color but I'm anxious to hear more of what the rest of you have on the subject.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

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Red Ryder
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Re: Will race and ethnicity follow us into the afterlife?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Aug 08, 2023 8:43 am

Gatorbait wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:33 pm
What a great topic. Thank you Red Ryder.

Had a Navajo foster sister who was one of the last group with the church sponsored Indian Placement Program. I've kept close to her throughout these almost 45 years. She was and is a deep thinker and I'd consider her one who would be a reliable sound source. She had a near death experience where she saw and spoke to some of her ancestors. She said that they were all "brown and delightsome". Looked to be in their prime. Her dad and grandfather seemed to be about the same age. She conversed with them in Navajo, a language that she was not and is not fluent in. She said that she could speak fluent Navajo for about two weeks after the NDE, but can no longer speak it now.

(Snip….)

I don't have any idea if there is an afterlife. I've no opinion of skin color but I'm anxious to hear more of what the rest of you have on the subject.
Thanks for sharing this beautiful experience Gator.

My default used to be skepticism and dismiss these types of experiences, but I’ve recently had a change of mind and think brain chemistry is an amazing thing.

I’m not sure if answering this question really matters. The more research and asking around I’ve done, the more opinions I’ve come across. In the end, it’s living in the here and now, showing love and acceptance, and treating people with respect that matters the most.

Perhaps that’s a glimpse of heaven… where race and ethnicity follow us as part of our soul, but we leave the hatred, racism, and disdain behind.

That’s what I choose to believe anyway!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Ghost
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Re: Will race and ethnicity follow us into the afterlife?

Post by Ghost » Tue Aug 08, 2023 9:15 am

It is an interesting thought that attributes based on where and when you happened to be born would become a permanent part of your immortal self.

A huge part of this in the Mormon context is whether you believe in premortal life. If you do, then are skin color and other attributes that we call race and ethnicity with you before you're born? If so, that implies a serious amount of predestination.

If you don't believe in premortal life, then do these traits that you happened to acquire in mortality follow you to the hereafter just so you'll be recognizable to friends and family, and so you'll feel like the same person that you were in life even though your body after death is constructed out of an entirely different set of atoms?

Since life on Earth is obviously less than the blink of an eye compared to existing forever, and would presumably be something you never even think about anymore, say, 12 billion years after death, it seems a little odd that arbitrary characteristics from Earth life would be such a significant part of who you are. But I guess no more than it seems odd that how well you follow the rules in a finite existence determines your infinite state.

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alas
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Re: Will race and ethnicity follow us into the afterlife?

Post by alas » Tue Aug 08, 2023 3:46 pm

And then here is the Brigham Young belief in multiple mortal probations. Reincarnation. So, if we actually live several lives, which race/ethnicity would be the one that stays with you?

I have always been terribly bothered by the Christian idea that we get one shot at getting it right and that determines our eternity. It would be like school with one test, and if you don’t feel good that day, then you flunk the full year. And how fair is it that someone like Russell Nelson gets born into a good Mormon family and gets his second anointing and top layer in the CK as nothing but an accident of his birth while the kid in Africa who is forced to be a child soldier and goes on to rape and kill people all his life goes to hell for the accident of his birth.

So, reincarnation as BY believed makes more sense than anything else. Besides, I have some experience of remembering a “past life” and so does my daughter, and the experiences are kind of spooky.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Will race and ethnicity follow us into the afterlife?

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Aug 10, 2023 9:13 am

The literature overwhelming supports life after death. It also strongly leans to reincarnation.

Scientific materialism discounts it all.

A universal resurrection is an absurdity because my body, right now, is part of the chicken I ate two weeks ago.

If both me and the chicken resurrect, who gets short changed in mass?

The same could be said about the hundreds of plants I’ve eaten over half a century.


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