Everything scary was invented by The Church

[Hagoth]

When I say The Church, I don't just mean just the LDS church, I mean the general conglomeration of organized religions.

All of the scary stuff comes from church. Think about it. Satan, ghosts, witches, demons, devil worship, hell, apocalypse; all inventions of the churches to keep people on their leash. None of these things are real, but they are absolutely essential for religion as we know it to exist and maintain power over people. I'm talking mainly about western religion, but even nondualist Eastern traditions couldn't resist, and started picking up gods and demons over time. Now some of those traditions are packed to the gills with imaginary scary creatures.

Witches were just people continuing to practice their pre-Christian religion. Gotta kill them (but remember it's the people making the medicines that are bad. The people doing the killing are good). Satan is the ultimate boogeyman. If there are actually any Satan worshippers out there they are few and far between and they don't love Satan nearly as much of as The Church does. They're mostly kids flipping off the churches and their parents, anyway.

Sometimes is seems like Satan is the real god of the churches. He can make you do anything. God can only guilt you, and occasionally inspire you to do occasional good. If asked to give up either Jesus or Satan, I think many Christian authority figures, if they were truly honest with themselves, might struggle at the choice. Much of the trauma that people like you and me have experienced, from early childhood, was caused by church-made fantasies about the evil spirits swirling all around us, and the ultimate horror that's just around the corner, when eyes will fall from sockets and the streets will run with blood.

If you take away all of the scary things created by religion you are left with only the things that are scary because they are dangerous, because they actually exist, like natural disasters, disease, and the prejudice of other people. Those can be awful, but at least they are comprehensible, unlike the hordes of invisible monsters that are always hovering around, looking for the least reason to condemn us for things like not taking the sacrament with the right hand or admiring someone's shoulders.

And while we're at it, the churches also made porn.

They did it by dehumanizing and demonizing healthy sexuality and the human body, feeding people's shame and self-hatred to create self-defeating behaviors. If people were allowed to develop healthy attitudes, porn as we know it probably wouldn't exist, or it would be something far more edifying, rather than degrading. Despite all of their condemnation of it, the churches really, really love porn. What a powerful control mechanism it has turned out to be for them.

So, a big round of applause to the churches for giving us devils and porn. It has served them well.

[Ghost]

Scariest of all may be the concept of God that you find in scripture and in the teachings of pretty much any church that bothers to come up with a definition at all. Unknowable at best and an all-powerful being with the temperament of a spoiled toddler at worst.

There are of course nicer formulations of God's character that people come up with based on cherry-picked scriptures or just made-up ideals, but even the most benign version doesn't appear to do much other than occasionally communicate some confusing guidance. And your eternal state depends on you picking out which of the countless sources that claim to speak for God really does, or communicate directly with the divine yourself (because that's always perfectly reliable and consistent, of course).

[stuck]

Sounds like the "Village" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Village_(2004_film)

[Angel]

Re: idea the Judeo-Christian Abrahamic god kills everyone in a flood, killing Egyptian babies, telling Abraham to kill his son, killing his own son - just another god of war -

I’ve been listening to “A History of Western Philosophy” by Bertrand Russell who is a Nobel Prize winner in Literature "in recognition of his varied and significant writings in which he champions humanitarian ideals and freedom of thought". Fascinating book that is both a history of philosophy and a history of religious beliefs. The history starts with the invention of writing 4000 BCE with Egyptians whose religious beliefs did NOT center around morality. Religion was used to increase fertility, increase crops, to boost confidence and win wars, and about worshipping the "pharaoh" who was intermediary between people and god. (Pharaoh = prophet) Egyptians were obsessed with death – you can see their mummies/funeral ideas even now within Christianity (those who do not like cremation, Egyptians invented the idea of resurrection and life beyond death. From Pharaohs claiming to be gods to Islamic theocracies to “one nation under god” – leader = god idea started long ago in Egypt. Gods were invented to increase fertility/improve agriculture / win wars / enforce heirarchies
- entrench leaders. Religion isn’t about morality, it is, and always has been, a power grab. The soul, death, and immortality, have their origin in Egypt and in Babylonia – consider the mummies the next time you are at a museum. We’re still practicing the superstitious fertility resurrection beliefs of the ancient Egyptians. Supposed morality came to play due to politics – politicians use *morality* to gain support.

[Cnsl1]

I agree with all ya'll... the only exception I can think of is Bigfoot. I watched The Legend of Boggy Creek when I was a kid and it scared me. I remember hearing that hairy monster's footsteps following me after I finished the chores in the barn one evening while I was running back to the house. Luckily, he waited to chase me after I finished the chores. I guess I had a good head start because I made it to the house safely.

But wait... we learned from the Miracle of Forgiveness that, according to David Patten, a big tall hairy dude walked beside him and admitted he was the one and only Cain, killer of Abel, searching for death but not finding it. Doomed to walk the earth till the end of the earth. Scaring the children and unsuspecting rabbits. Bigfoot. Obviously.

I guess religion invented Bigfoot too.

[Hagoth]

I watched The Legend of Boggy Creek when I was a kid and it scared me.

I watched that at the Riverdale Drive-In in Ogden, UT!

I love your David Patten connection. Even if religion didn't create Bigfoot, it saw an opportunity to take advantage of it. Really interesting that SWK decided to put that story in his book that was all about making people submissive by teaching them to hate themselves. If only I could introduce yet another boogeyman in here somewhere.

[Hagoth]

What I'm trying to get at with this thread is to understand the endless trauma I experienced in my childhood because of this made-up boogeyman sh*t.

At least half of my childhood dreams were nightmares about demons, evil spirits, and the end of the world. I had to really get my courage up to go in my basement to get my mom a can of peaches because of the evils lying in wait for me. Sometimes I lay awake night after night in sheer terror of the things I had been taught in Sunday school that week. I realize now that I was severely traumatized. And the loving God gave me little comfort, because he was the author of so much of this terror.

At the same time I absolutely loved monster movies. They weren't scary because I knew they were make-believe. But the horrors I learned about in church, that was a different story. My leaders and teachers insisted that those things were real, and that I was in constant danger of invisible monsters; they were ALL AROUND ME! And if that wasn't enough, any day now the moon would turn to blood and those multi-headed, scorpion-tailed monsters would start rising out of the pit and swarming the earth to torture sinners like me (the kid down the road had shown me his brother's Playboy magazine and I liked it, so I had no doubt I deserved whatever horrors God+Satan had in store for me).

[Angel]

What I'm trying to get at with this thread is to understand the endless trauma I experienced in my childhood because of this made-up boogeyman sh*t.

At least half of my childhood dreams were nightmares about demons, evil spirits, and the end of the world. I had to really get my courage up to go in my basement to get my mom a can of peaches because of the evils lying in wait for me. Sometimes I lay awake night after night in sheer terror of the things I had been taught in Sunday school that week. I realize now that I was severely traumatized. And the loving God gave me little comfort, because he was the author of so much of this terror.

At the same time I absolutely loved monster movies. They weren't scary because I knew they were make-believe. But the horrors I learned about in church, that was a different story. My leaders and teachers insisted that those things were real, and that I was in constant danger of invisible monsters; they were ALL AROUND ME! And if that wasn't enough, any day now the moon would turn to blood and those multi-headed, scorpion-tailed monsters would start rising out of the pit and swarming the earth to torture sinners like me (the kid down the road had shown me his brother's Playboy magazine and I liked it, so I had no doubt I deserved whatever horrors God+Satan had in store for me).

Yup.

How many here know someone who lived, and died in fear. Stockpiled food for the war that never came. Stockpiled all kinds of schtuff - they die, and their poor kids and grandkids have to take care of it. Dumpsters full of rotting food that was hoarded, never used, never shared, never donated. What a waste. To live life in a bunker instead of ... you know ... a life of travel, of loud laughter, ...

eat, drink (not too much), and be merry

[Dirty Bird]

What I'm trying to get at with this thread is to understand the endless trauma I experienced in my childhood because of this made-up boogeyman sh*t.

At least half of my childhood dreams were nightmares about demons, evil spirits, and the end of the world. I had to really get my courage up to go in my basement to get my mom a can of peaches because of the evils lying in wait for me. Sometimes I lay awake night after night in sheer terror of the things I had been taught in Sunday school that week. I realize now that I was severely traumatized. And the loving God gave me little comfort, because he was the author of so much of this terror.

At the same time I absolutely loved monster movies. They weren't scary because I knew they were make-believe. But the horrors I learned about in church, that was a different story. My leaders and teachers insisted that those things were real, and that I was in constant danger of invisible monsters; they were ALL AROUND ME! And if that wasn't enough, any day now the moon would turn to blood and those multi-headed, scorpion-tailed monsters would start rising out of the pit and swarming the earth to torture sinners like me (the kid down the road had shown me his brother's Playboy magazine and I liked it, so I had no doubt I deserved whatever horrors God+Satan had in store for me).

Yup.

How many here know someone who lived, and died in fear. Stockpiled food for the war that never came. Stockpiled all kinds of schtuff - they die, and their poor kids and grandkids have to take care of it. Dumpsters full of rotting food that was hoarded, never used, never shared, never donated. What a waste. To live life in a bunker instead of ... you know ... a life of travel, of loud laughter, ...

eat, drink (not too much), and be merry

To the best of my knowledge, none of my older children have ever visited a mental health professional. These are the children who watched as I stocked up on firearms, food, and medical supplies as a faithful Mormon. On the other hand, two of my younger children who have never set foot in a Mormon church suffer from anxiety brought on by the stresses of society, and one of them really suffers from a "condition" that is referred to as eco-anxiety by professionals in the field of mental health. In other words, while my older children were concerned about the end of the world as a result of the second coming, their mental suffering was minimal compared to one of my younger children, who has never been religious in any way, shape, or form, both are anxious about the end of the world as a result of the rhetoric surrounding climate change. Sometimes I do wonder if exiting the church was a good idea.

[Angel]

To the best of my knowledge, none of my older children have ever visited a mental health professional. These are the children who watched as I stocked up on firearms, food, and medical supplies as a faithful Mormon. On the other hand, two of my younger children who have never set foot in a Mormon church suffer from anxiety brought on by the stresses of society, and one of them really suffers from a "condition" that is referred to as eco-anxiety by professionals in the field of mental health. In other words, while my older children were concerned about the end of the world as a result of the second coming, their mental suffering was minimal compared to one of my younger children, who has never been religious in any way, shape, or form, both are anxious about the end of the world as a result of the rhetoric surrounding climate change. Sometimes I do wonder if exiting the church was a good idea.

We have different experiences - my fam, 180° from yours as far as who is still in and who is out.
I also have a diverse family, with quite a few religious (and non/none's).

Here's a test: Google search
What religion has the happiest people? (Ans: Protestants, Buddhists and Roman Catholic - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6182728/ )
Which is the healthiest - longest life span religion in the world? ( Observant Jews and Buddhists)
Which religion is most educated? Hindus, Jews, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Buddhists, and Orthodox Christians .... hmmm... Buddhism is looking good

As for charity, it needs to be real charity - homeless shelters, hospitals, non-biased education → secular wins on this, the vast majority of welfare does not come from religious organizations.

Funniest flowchart ever: https://www.quora.com/Which-religion-is ... -follow-it

Half the fun of leaving is exploring other groups.
There are some really amazing groups out there. Nothing "true", but good, better, best...

I volunteer at our local food bank (I don't store it in my house).
I vote and am politically active (I'm not part of a mercenary group, do not have weapons stockpiled in home).
Yes - I work to reduce pollution, teaching an engineering ethics unit, promote technologies that are not wasteful...

good. better. best.
Is it better for everyone to ... hunker down in their Ruby Ridge? their waco (great Netflix on this - everyone should watch)
or... is it better to become involved in a wider community.

[Advocate]

What I'm trying to get at with this thread is to understand the endless trauma I experienced in my childhood because of this made-up boogeyman sh*t.

At least half of my childhood dreams were nightmares about demons, evil spirits, and the end of the world. I had to really get my courage up to go in my basement to get my mom a can of peaches because of the evils lying in wait for me. Sometimes I lay awake night after night in sheer terror of the things I had been taught in Sunday school that week. I realize now that I was severely traumatized. And the loving God gave me little comfort, because he was the author of so much of this terror.

At the same time I absolutely loved monster movies. They weren't scary because I knew they were make-believe. But the horrors I learned about in church, that was a different story. My leaders and teachers insisted that those things were real, and that I was in constant danger of invisible monsters; they were ALL AROUND ME! And if that wasn't enough, any day now the moon would turn to blood and those multi-headed, scorpion-tailed monsters would start rising out of the pit and swarming the earth to torture sinners like me (the kid down the road had shown me his brother's Playboy magazine and I liked it, so I had no doubt I deserved whatever horrors God+Satan had in store for me).

Yup.

How many here know someone who lived, and died in fear. Stockpiled food for the war that never came. Stockpiled all kinds of schtuff - they die, and their poor kids and grandkids have to take care of it. Dumpsters full of rotting food that was hoarded, never used, never shared, never donated. What a waste. To live life in a bunker instead of ... you know ... a life of travel, of loud laughter, ...

eat, drink (not too much), and be merry

To the best of my knowledge, none of my older children have ever visited a mental health professional. These are the children who watched as I stocked up on firearms, food, and medical supplies as a faithful Mormon. On the other hand, two of my younger children who have never set foot in a Mormon church suffer from anxiety brought on by the stresses of society, and one of them really suffers from a "condition" that is referred to as eco-anxiety by professionals in the field of mental health. In other words, while my older children were concerned about the end of the world as a result of the second coming, their mental suffering was minimal compared to one of my younger children, who has never been religious in any way, shape, or form, both are anxious about the end of the world as a result of the rhetoric surrounding climate change. Sometimes I do wonder if exiting the church was a good idea.

Some think that environmentalism has become religion, especially for urban atheists. Michael Crichton spoke about this idea back in 2003. From Mr. Crichton:

Earth untouched by man = Eden
We all use energy and make pollution = We are all sinners (fallen)
Recycle, try not to use energy, etc. = commandments
Climate change wiping out mankind = End of times before the second coming


Becoming an environmentalist seems to fill many of the needs that religions occupied in the past.

[Hagoth]

Humans just can't help thinking in black and white.

The loudest voices seem to tell you that you have to be either a godless tree-hugger or a God-fearing climate denier. What's wrong with loving God and his creation? What's wrong with being stewards of the home God gave you, rather than merely consumers of it? What's wrong with wanting a safe environment for your grandchildren regardless of the existence or nonexistence of God? (I'm lecturing to myself here, by the way. It's not like I have personally made a huge difference. At least I can vote... but I'm in Utah, so do I really count?).

Concerning global warming fear vs. Second Coming fear: people have been telling us for thousands of years that the End Times are just around the corner and the signs are everywhere, but it never materialized. Scientists have been warning us about global warming for decades and it is actually happening. Those two potentialities are no more interchangeable than a spooky ghost and a speeding freight train. Weirdest of all are the people who deny climate change but point to the consequences of climate change as the very signs that the impending Second Coming (this time for sure!).

[Mayan_Elephant]

Humans just can't help thinking in black and white.

The loudest voices seem to tell you that you have to be either a godless tree-hugger or a God-fearing climate denier. What's wrong with loving God and his creation? What's wrong with being stewards of the home God gave you, rather than merely consumers of it? What's wrong with wanting a safe environment for your grandchildren regardless of the existence or nonexistence of God? (I'm lecturing to myself here, by the way. It's not like I have personally made a huge difference. At least I can vote... but I'm in Utah, so do I really count?).

Concerning global warming fear vs. Second Coming fear: people have been telling us for thousands of years that the End Times are just around the corner and the signs are everywhere, but it never materialized. Scientists have been warning us about global warming for decades and it is actually happening. Those two potentialities are no more interchangeable than a spooky ghost and a speeding freight train. Weirdest of all are the people who deny climate change but point to the consequences of climate change as the very signs that the impending Second Coming (this time for sure!).

I am cool with all that. I would add that the black/white dichotomy in how people think is difficult if not impossible for me to quantify or qualify. The black/white dichotomy about how people organize seems to be alarmingly extreme. Media is organized that way. Politics, college/trades, war/peace. People seem to be living in affirmation bubbles even if they don't think or agree with all the dogma and drama, they revel in it.

As for people and climate change, the credibility of people is distracting from the science and facts. Which, I am totally cool with for what it is worth. I like memes of Greta smoking cigarettes in a battery powered car in coal country. I drive an electric car but I damn sure don't think it is an environmental upgrade. I think the credibility of the arguments about these cars has made the transition a bit bumpy.

Without being vague, as I am accused, let me put it this way. I don't care much about recycling plastic and cans. I do whatever whenever it is convenient. That ain't cuz I hate the climate, it is because I have seen enough recycling centers to get the joke. I do like conservation. If people were concerned, truly, about the environment they would use the most environmentally effective cars and kitchens and tractors available - used ones or the ones they got. Replacing a car with a new one taxes the environment more than the old one. The credibility of concern for the environment, in a pro growth and pro consumption model, is shot to hell. And I ain't no saint in hell.

[Hagoth]

I am cool with all that. I would add that the black/white dichotomy in how people think is difficult if not impossible for me to quantify or qualify. The black/white dichotomy about how people organize seems to be alarmingly extreme. Media is organized that way. Politics, college/trades, war/peace. People seem to be living in affirmation bubbles even if they don't think or agree with all the dogma and drama, they revel in it.

As for people and climate change, the credibility of people is distracting from the science and facts. Which, I am totally cool with for what it is worth. I like memes of Greta smoking cigarettes in a battery powered car in coal country. I drive an electric car but I damn sure don't think it is an environmental upgrade. I think the credibility of the arguments about these cars has made the transition a bit bumpy.

Without being vague, as I am accused, let me put it this way. I don't care much about recycling plastic and cans. I do whatever whenever it is convenient. That ain't cuz I hate the climate, it is because I have seen enough recycling centers to get the joke. I do like conservation. If people were concerned, truly, about the environment they would use the most environmentally effective cars and kitchens and tractors available - used ones or the ones they got. Replacing a car with a new one taxes the environment more than the old one. The credibility of concern for the environment, in a pro growth and pro consumption model, is shot to hell. And I ain't no saint in hell.

All excellent points. I try not to fall into end-of-world terror from either side; I think the church permanently charred my terror receptors on that front. The return of Jesus would be a great option because it would relieve humanity of the need to do anything big and difficult, at least for the people Jesus likes. He'll fix everything for them. But if he continues to not make an appearances (e.g. the Prophet Zarquon), we've got some work to do. In typical human fashion, we'll wait until the pain and inconvenience of doing the bare minimum is far worse than the pain and inconvenience of doing something drastic. A lot of people will probably suffer and die, then we will stabilize to a new norm, eating grubs and drinking recycled sewer water, or whatever. And then we'll restart the waiting-for-Jesus clock.

[Mayan_Elephant]

I am cool with all that. I would add that the black/white dichotomy in how people think is difficult if not impossible for me to quantify or qualify. The black/white dichotomy about how people organize seems to be alarmingly extreme. Media is organized that way. Politics, college/trades, war/peace. People seem to be living in affirmation bubbles even if they don't think or agree with all the dogma and drama, they revel in it.

As for people and climate change, the credibility of people is distracting from the science and facts. Which, I am totally cool with for what it is worth. I like memes of Greta smoking cigarettes in a battery powered car in coal country. I drive an electric car but I damn sure don't think it is an environmental upgrade. I think the credibility of the arguments about these cars has made the transition a bit bumpy.

Without being vague, as I am accused, let me put it this way. I don't care much about recycling plastic and cans. I do whatever whenever it is convenient. That ain't cuz I hate the climate, it is because I have seen enough recycling centers to get the joke. I do like conservation. If people were concerned, truly, about the environment they would use the most environmentally effective cars and kitchens and tractors available - used ones or the ones they got. Replacing a car with a new one taxes the environment more than the old one. The credibility of concern for the environment, in a pro growth and pro consumption model, is shot to hell. And I ain't no saint in hell.

All excellent points. I try not to fall into end-of-world terror from either side; I think the church permanently charred my terror receptors on that front. The return of Jesus would be a great option because it would relieve humanity of the need to do anything big and difficult, at least for the people Jesus likes. He'll fix everything for them. But if he continues to not make an appearances (e.g. the Prophet Zarquon), we've got some work to do. In typical human fashion, we'll wait until the pain and inconvenience of doing the bare minimum is far worse than the pain and inconvenience of doing something drastic. A lot of people will probably suffer and die, then we will stabilize to a new norm, eating grubs and drinking recycled sewer water, or whatever. And then we'll restart the waiting-for-Jesus clock.

We agree, mostly. Yes, people do procrastinate and shirk until they can’t. No, both the digital and analog Jesus clock forms have been replaced by an app and apply a timer feature. Not a clock.

[Hagoth]

We agree, mostly. Yes, people do procrastinate and shirk until they can’t. No, both the digital and analog Jesus clock forms have been replaced by an app and apply a timer feature. Not a clock.

Matthew 24:36(v 2.0) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my app only.

[Mayan_Elephant]

We agree, mostly. Yes, people do procrastinate and shirk until they can’t. No, both the digital and analog Jesus clock forms have been replaced by an app and apply a timer feature. Not a clock.

Matthew 24:36(v 2.0) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my app only.

We also know that Samson slew the Philistines with the jawbone of an app, or appbone of a jew. Not sure. It was something. Judges 15:15

[alas]

Humans just can't help thinking in black and white.

The loudest voices seem to tell you that you have to be either a godless tree-hugger or a God-fearing climate denier. What's wrong with loving God and his creation? What's wrong with being stewards of the home God gave you, rather than merely consumers of it? What's wrong with wanting a safe environment for your grandchildren regardless of the existence or nonexistence of God? (I'm lecturing to myself here, by the way. It's not like I have personally made a huge difference. At least I can vote... but I'm in Utah, so do I really count?).

Concerning global warming fear vs. Second Coming fear: people have been telling us for thousands of years that the End Times are just around the corner and the signs are everywhere, but it never materialized. Scientists have been warning us about global warming for decades and it is actually happening. Those two potentialities are no more interchangeable than a spooky ghost and a speeding freight train. Weirdest of all are the people who deny climate change but point to the consequences of climate change as the very signs that the impending Second Coming (this time for sure!).

I am cool with all that. I would add that the black/white dichotomy in how people think is difficult if not impossible for me to quantify or qualify. The black/white dichotomy about how people organize seems to be alarmingly extreme. Media is organized that way. Politics, college/trades, war/peace. People seem to be living in affirmation bubbles even if they don't think or agree with all the dogma and drama, they revel in it.

As for people and climate change, the credibility of people is distracting from the science and facts. Which, I am totally cool with for what it is worth. I like memes of Greta smoking cigarettes in a battery powered car in coal country. I drive an electric car but I damn sure don't think it is an environmental upgrade. I think the credibility of the arguments about these cars has made the transition a bit bumpy.

Without being vague, as I am accused, let me put it this way. I don't care much about recycling plastic and cans. I do whatever whenever it is convenient. That ain't cuz I hate the climate, it is because I have seen enough recycling centers to get the joke. I do like conservation. If people were concerned, truly, about the environment they would use the most environmentally effective cars and kitchens and tractors available - used ones or the ones they got. Replacing a car with a new one taxes the environment more than the old one. The credibility of concern for the environment, in a pro growth and pro consumption model, is shot to hell. And I ain't no saint in hell.

That idea that social media, politics and just about everything is set up to encourage us to stay in our echo chambers is why I purposely read from the far right, the moderate right, and the moderate left. My newsfeed does not carry anything beyond just slightly left leaning. And yet it is the right that fears they are censored, and my newsfeed doesn’t carry even the mid left. I can’t find a pro-socialist newspaper on my feed. And that is OK, cause I would never vote for Bernie Sanders. But, I read Fox News and joke to my Republican husband that it is so I know what the enemy is planning. But honestly, I want to know what the thinking is on all sides of an issue. I don’t want to be in an echo chamber. If I could find a good far left newspaper, I would read that too.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Humans just can't help thinking in black and white.

The loudest voices seem to tell you that you have to be either a godless tree-hugger or a God-fearing climate denier. What's wrong with loving God and his creation? What's wrong with being stewards of the home God gave you, rather than merely consumers of it? What's wrong with wanting a safe environment for your grandchildren regardless of the existence or nonexistence of God? (I'm lecturing to myself here, by the way. It's not like I have personally made a huge difference. At least I can vote... but I'm in Utah, so do I really count?).

Concerning global warming fear vs. Second Coming fear: people have been telling us for thousands of years that the End Times are just around the corner and the signs are everywhere, but it never materialized. Scientists have been warning us about global warming for decades and it is actually happening. Those two potentialities are no more interchangeable than a spooky ghost and a speeding freight train. Weirdest of all are the people who deny climate change but point to the consequences of climate change as the very signs that the impending Second Coming (this time for sure!).

I am cool with all that. I would add that the black/white dichotomy in how people think is difficult if not impossible for me to quantify or qualify. The black/white dichotomy about how people organize seems to be alarmingly extreme. Media is organized that way. Politics, college/trades, war/peace. People seem to be living in affirmation bubbles even if they don't think or agree with all the dogma and drama, they revel in it.

As for people and climate change, the credibility of people is distracting from the science and facts. Which, I am totally cool with for what it is worth. I like memes of Greta smoking cigarettes in a battery powered car in coal country. I drive an electric car but I damn sure don't think it is an environmental upgrade. I think the credibility of the arguments about these cars has made the transition a bit bumpy.

Without being vague, as I am accused, let me put it this way. I don't care much about recycling plastic and cans. I do whatever whenever it is convenient. That ain't cuz I hate the climate, it is because I have seen enough recycling centers to get the joke. I do like conservation. If people were concerned, truly, about the environment they would use the most environmentally effective cars and kitchens and tractors available - used ones or the ones they got. Replacing a car with a new one taxes the environment more than the old one. The credibility of concern for the environment, in a pro growth and pro consumption model, is shot to hell. And I ain't no saint in hell.

That idea that social media, politics and just about everything is set up to encourage us to stay in our echo chambers is why I purposely read from the far right, the moderate right, and the moderate left. My newsfeed does not carry anything beyond just slightly left leaning. And yet it is the right that fears they are censored, and my newsfeed doesn’t carry even the mid left. I can’t find a pro-socialist newspaper on my feed. And that is OK, cause I would never vote for Bernie Sanders. But, I read Fox News and joke to my Republican husband that it is so I know what the enemy is planning. But honestly, I want to know what the thinking is on all sides of an issue. I don’t want to be in an echo chamber. If I could find a good far left newspaper, I would read that too.

I voted for Bernie. Not this time around, but the last time.

[wtfluff]

One thing that popped into my head recently that's "scary" and likely invented by "The Church": Fear of death.

Why do we have to fear death? It's an inevitable part of the human experience. No-one's getting outta here alive, so why do we have to be scared of the inevitable?

Is fear of death invented by religion?

I'd like to have a conversation with a human who hasn't had a fear of death for their entire life. Is that possible?