Shunning by Decreee

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RubinHighlander
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Shunning by Decreee

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Sep 14, 2023 1:21 pm

If you haven't yet, highly recommend this RFM/Bill Reel session:

https://www.youtube.com/live/HmUTeRWuLt ... IjuoB5Rybb

I was surprised at the Kirton McConkie letter and police action, really looked so freaking amateur! Really? Billion dollar law firm and that's the best you could do?

RFM really laid into their law firm for it.

It wreaks of desperation on the church's part, pulls another curtain back to see the well funded janky machine that's having problems adapting their methods to the modern onslaught of facts and people leaving.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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moksha
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Re: Shunning by Decreee

Post by moksha » Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:14 pm

It was an excellent podcast.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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MoPag
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Re: Shunning by Decreee

Post by MoPag » Thu Sep 14, 2023 8:37 pm

My fave part was when RFM called Kriton and McConnell "Hacks!" :lol:
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Just This Guy
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Re: Shunning by Decreee

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Sep 15, 2023 4:26 am

I am in the middle of this podcast. I just got to the part of the letter from K&M. WTF???

I have to wait until I drive home from work to finish this episode. May be a good thing since that episode was getting the blood boiling a bit. This is messed up so far.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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blazerb
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Re: Shunning by Decreee

Post by blazerb » Fri Sep 15, 2023 6:06 am

I've seen a couple of previous people who have received this letter from KM. I loved hearing RMN's take on the legality of the letter. The level of chutzpah needed to claim authority to declare who you may and may not contact is unbelievable. Is there no penalty for a lawyer making demands that are not legal?

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Shunning by Decreee

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Sep 15, 2023 8:38 am

Now that I've thought about it a bit more, seems to me the letter is actually crafted to be dummied down on purpose. It's just a threat to intimidate. I think they made it so it would not hold up in court because they can't really make that broad of a legal claim without some crime that had been committed. Thus, no actual signature on the bottom of the letter. They would likely need to file an actual restraining order to put any legal weight on it. But the letter is enough to scare most folks and put them into a situation where by the local SP does not have to have the church court, but can just kill the membership by default with no shows.

Like RFM pointed out, the last thing the church wants is someone like Bill R. with an hour or two platform to hammer their top local leadership with all the facts against the truth claims. Either way, turning off mics, shutting down sacrament meetings and having good members leave or get Xd for non-morality reasons, also creates more potential doubts and membership loss in the local congregations where these incidence happen.

But the way the locals handled the case for this couple, seems like it created more angst than it should have. They could have just called him in the early stages and let him go based on non-compliance; follow the prophet or you are out! I can see the cogdis his local leaders likely went through, trying to have it both ways with their conditional love, but still comply with HQ. It's another example of where the church destroys friendships and families, demanding devotion to the leaders.

It does make me wonder how things might have played out if he had gone to see the SP that day. I'll bet they had the police ready for it. They could claim it was for safety and liability protection. And while they are there, they could do the pat down for any recording devices...er, I mean weapons.

Church courts used to be so much easier when it was just infidelity. Now it's a lot more members who are on good moral standing who just sincerely want answers and truth.

Maybe they should simplify the temple interview to just two questions:
"Do you doubt your doubts about the corporation?"
"Do you accept the corporation as the source of all truth?"

One thing I'd like to say to that SP: Jesus didn't like lawyers much in the NT times. But in the latter days it would seem he's changed his mind, now that he has plenty of money to pay them to do his dirty work!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Just This Guy
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Re: Shunning by Decreee

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:42 am

I listened to some over lunch today, so I gt through most of the episode.

I wonder how much is ego and how much is poor decisions that have blown up in the face of leadership.

My FIL used to be a bishop and he readily admitted that he got exactly on exactly 2 things for his training as a bishop. "Jack" and "Squat". His words. I imagine that things are about the same today. Leadership is told to defend the church but given no training on how to do that. No training on how to deal with people who have doupts. No training on how to deal with difficult situations in F&T meeting.

Instead, you have a SP who had things get a bit interesting in a stake conference. Maybe the ego of the GA who was there and got shut down by this brother was bruised. I would be curious if that GA (or another GA) is pulling some of the strings on this.

In the end, there was no attempt to de-escalate the situation. With the First F&T meeting, they could have ended it all there. Simply letting Mitja finish and then offing a calm counter testimony could have opened the door for some discussions between members and leadership. Heck, most people would have probably dozed trough it like they do every meeting. No, they had to overreact. This will spark questions and gossip. People will wonder what is going on. They may reach out. They defiantly WILL remember this for good or bad. Now the incident is on Mormoism Live and is now public knowledge. So if they were trying to contain it, they failed miserably.

So did someone make a bad call at the first F&*T meeting but were then unable to back down and admit that they handled it poorly? Or is someone on a power trip?




On a completely unrelated note, Sara sounds just like a co-worker of mine. So whenever she spoke, I was thinking of an engineer in Kansas.
Last edited by Just This Guy on Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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deacon blues
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Re: Shunning by Decreee

Post by deacon blues » Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:19 am

I Loved the podcast. A very sweet young couple gets bludgeoned by TCJCOLDS/Kirton&McConkie.
It was like killing a fly with a sledge hammer.
The brother's printed testimony was appropriate. The Stake Pres. evidently overreacted.
Kirton&McConkie's letter was embarrassingly strident and insensitive. It was like Elder Holland's "musket speech" on steroid rage.
Just because a critical member wanted to vent, in a kind, general way, why they decided to quit coming to Church.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: Shunning by Decreee

Post by Hagoth » Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:49 am

Reminds me of that New Testament story when a fishmonger questioned Jesus' authority so Jesus hired a team of lawyers to bully the guy's family and then turned them over to the Roman soldiers. After that it was smooth sailing for Jesus and nobody even though of nailing him to anything because he successfully entrenched himself deeply in an echo chamber.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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MoPag
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Re: Shunning by Decreee

Post by MoPag » Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:17 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:49 am
Reminds me of that New Testament story when a fishmonger questioned Jesus' authority so Jesus hired a team of lawyers to bully the guy's family and then turned them over to the Roman soldiers. After that it was smooth sailing for Jesus and nobody even though of nailing him to anything because he successfully entrenched himself deeply in an echo chamber.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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