One Can of Worms... out of many.

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deacon blues
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One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by deacon blues » Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:37 am

I think I was about 16-17 when I became aware of Matt. 22:30 "In the heavens they neither marry or are given in marriage, but are as the angels in heaven."
To my mind then, and now this was a clear contradiction to LDS teachings. Probably a year or two later I read an LDS explanation in Joseph Fielding Smith's "Answers to Gospel Questions." It didn't make sense then, and it doesn't now. The idea of everyone being sealed in an unbroken chain to Adam (and Eve) has so many possible interpretations, ramifications, and ambiguities (different kingdoms?, hierarchies?!, sex?, with whom?, women sealed to fathers or husband's line?, etc.) , that it still makes my head spin.
How much simpler is the idea of heaven as a big family reunion where we are all together as brothers and sisters (or even angels) and God as a loving parent(s). This is my understanding of the Christian view of the next life. Others may differ.
The Mormon concept of the next life is a can of worms with multiple dangling threads, and with the skimpily simplistic explanation: "God will work it all out."
I find the Mormon concept of heaven very unlikely, although I try to consider it a possibility, for the sake of understanding others, etc.
Your ideas?
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RubinHighlander
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:58 am

What comes to mind when I hear that scripture, the practice the Catholic church started with the celibacy of their clergy. The idea that you are married to the church and none other.

The mormonism madness is just that: a little mystery (gods ways are not your ways) to create some wow factor and specialness (temples and magic PJs) and a lot of what would look like ancient and restored secret knowledge to live your life by and keep you a motivated battery in the matrix. Scientology has a similar pattern, just different words and procedures. You'll know it's the promised land the minute you let the check leave your hand because now you are invested.

Now that I've escaped that culty corporation, I look at all that heavenly dogma I was fed and it really blows my mind how absolutely ridiculous it all looks now and that I believed it so ardently...it's a mind F.

Then I also get angry, because of the way it can marginalize people within their own families, creating this tension, angst, anger, and sadness, between spouses, kids, the church, god, satan, political parties. It's a seriously unhealthy situation running rampant throughout our species.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Hagoth
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by Hagoth » Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:08 am

deacon blues wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:37 am
I think I was about 16-17 when I became aware of Matt. 22:30 "In the heavens they neither marry or are given in marriage, but are as the angels in heaven."
I mentally gimnacized this to mean that you need to get married now, because that won't be an option after you're dead. But then I hear GAs promising unmarried women and women who are married to an "unworthy" man that they will be matched up in the next life. I guess the ultimate answer is: as far as it is translated correctly.
deacon blues wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:37 am
How much simpler is the idea of heaven as a big family reunion where we are all together as brothers and sisters (or even angels) and God as a loving parent(s).
Just ask your parents who is in their eternal family, then ask yoru spouse, then ask one of your grown kids with a family of their own. It gets messy very quickly. Everybody sealed together is the same as nobody sealed to anyone.
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nibbler
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by nibbler » Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:21 pm

It probably all started when Joseph Smith thought, "Wouldn't it be cool if..." when he heard until death do you part during someone's wedding. That or it started when he read someone else's thoughts about that.

Matthew 22:30 probably wasn't even considered. If the verse did come up they probably did the whole insofar as it's translated correctly and ran with their sealing idea.
Hagoth wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:08 am
Just ask you parents who is in their eternal family, then ask you spouse, then ask one of your grown kids with a family of their own. It gets messy very quickly.
It does.

So you want to live with your family forever? Why not move in with your parents right now? Get a head start. Don't want to? Okay, I can see that. But what does being with your family forever mean in the afterlife? Visits only? What makes a family a family? The label you give it? Can't you have enough confidence in the relationships you define without needing the security blanket of the relationship being sealed or sanctioned by god?

I'm not sure what I'd do with all my family for forever. I know enough great grandparents to have a connection with them. My great-great grandparents and anyone beyond would be complete strangers to me. It would be like going to a family reunion as a child. Lots of people you don't know. Sounds like hell for someone with social anxiety, or do social anxieties get fixed in our perfect bodies? Is that insta-fixed or one of the fixes we have to work out ourselves over a few eons?
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by wtfluff » Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:02 pm

nibbler wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:21 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:08 am
Just ask you parents who is in their eternal family, then ask you spouse, then ask one of your grown kids with a family of their own. It gets messy very quickly.
It does.
This was a "shelf item" for me forever - even if I didn't know what a shelf item was.

Any time any of my relatives started talking about the afterlife, and no empty chairs and all of the other clichés about Super VIP MORmON afterlife, I would think: "It doesn't work that way now, why would it work that way in the afterlife?"

Then I would apply any number of MORmON thought-terminators like "It will all work out when we're dead" and turn my brain off and just keep trying to MORm to the best of my ability. (Which MORm-ing obviously wasn't good enough, or methinks I wouldn't be "here.")
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moksha
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by moksha » Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:09 am

Joseph knew his most ardent supporters wanted sex, so he created endless sex to help populate empty planets with the sister-wives' endless pregnancies.

Deep Mormonism: All the gentile wives will be eligible to sign on as sister-wives once their earthly husbands become TK-Smoothies.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Red Ryder
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:39 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:09 am
Joseph knew his most ardent supporters wanted sex, so he created endless sex to help populate empty planets with the sister-wives' endless pregnancies.

Deep Mormonism: All the gentile wives will be eligible to sign on as sister-wives once their earthly husbands become TK-Smoothies.
The fear of genital removal really is problematic only for men. The ability to spiritually procreate and populate endless planets is sold as a reward. Gonna need that penis because it’s a tool for success. But for women, why would they want to be eternally pregnant? If I was a women I’d be more than happy to give up my uterus for eternity. No more miserable 🩸 menstruation mood swings, cramps, and maxi pads! Go ahead God, take my uterus. It’s all yours!
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RubinHighlander
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:06 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:39 am
The fear of genital removal really is problematic only for men. The ability to spiritually procreate and populate endless planets is sold as a reward. Gonna need that penis because it’s a tool for success.
So that's the real reason dear leaders put Min's penis back on in the BoA!
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alas
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by alas » Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:36 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:39 am
moksha wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 5:09 am
Joseph knew his most ardent supporters wanted sex, so he created endless sex to help populate empty planets with the sister-wives' endless pregnancies.

Deep Mormonism: All the gentile wives will be eligible to sign on as sister-wives once their earthly husbands become TK-Smoothies.
The fear of genital removal really is problematic only for men. The ability to spiritually procreate and populate endless planets is sold as a reward. Gonna need that penis because it’s a tool for success. But for women, why would they want to be eternally pregnant? If I was a women I’d be more than happy to give up my uterus for eternity. No more miserable 🩸 menstruation mood swings, cramps, and maxi pads! Go ahead God, take my uterus. It’s all yours!
I think it is funny when this “pregnant for eternity” comes up on the feminist blogs. There is always some man telling us we misunderstand. And that *spirit* children will not require 9 months of pregnancy and *spirit* children are not created through physical bodies having sex and bla bla bla. While really Mormon belief about our celestial bodies being the only ones who can have sex and it is all very much talking about physical sex and physical procreation, with all the talk about two genders are needed because two men can’t have a baby together and the whole reason gay marriage is “wrong” is based on physical bodies having physical sex to produce offspring, and really if you are going to require a man and woman, it is the woman who gets pregnant. The church wants to insist it is procreation just like here on earth, but at the same time pretend that women will spend no time pregnant. They cannot have it both ways.

And, yes, please resurrect me with no uterus.

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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:17 pm

alas wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:36 am
There is always some man telling us we misunderstand. And that *spirit* children will not require 9 months of pregnancy and *spirit* children are not created through physical bodies having sex and bla bla bla.
Here's how it works. Men get to have sex as often as they want. More sex just means more celestial sperm cells in the woman's holding tank. Meanwhile she is squirting out an endless stream of little Casper ghost babies like some kind of celestial firehose. Do the math. If you want to populate that new planet your husband just assembled from Matter Unorganized you're gonna need a hundred billion or so spirits ready to launch from own personal pre-existence world. Let's say the 9-month gestation is a purely earthly thing, and hubbie-god gives you a generous thousand years to birth all of the kids for his new planet. That's still three babies per second you're birthing. It may take a little longer because he'll probably want you to stop pumping them out whenever he wants to get in there and add more seed to your reservoir. After all, thinking Celestial IS about men getting all the sex they want, isn't it?
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:54 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:17 pm
alas wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:36 am
There is always some man telling us we misunderstand. And that *spirit* children will not require 9 months of pregnancy and *spirit* children are not created through physical bodies having sex and bla bla bla.
Here's how it works. Men get to have sex as often as they want. More sex just means more celestial sperm cells in the woman's holding tank. Meanwhile she is squirting out an endless stream of little Casper ghost babies like some kind of celestial firehose. Do the math. If you want to populate that new planet your husband just assembled from Matter Unorganized you're gonna need a hundred billion or so spirits ready to launch from own personal pre-existence world. Let's say the 9-month gestation is a purely earthly thing, and hubbie-god gives you a generous thousand years to birth all of the kids for his new planet. That's still three babies per second you're birthing. It may take a little longer because he'll probably want you to stop pumping them out whenever he wants to get in there and add more seed to your reservoir. After all, thinking Celestial IS about men getting all the sex they want, isn't it?
Wow! You NOMies are on task today! Seriously though, these lines of thought are what you are left to ponderize when you look at the dogma for what it really is and how the religionists and mystics try to explain it. I guess you just have to be able to think celestial, which of course means not thinking too much along the lines of logic and reason.

Sometimes I look at the patterns of what matter does in this crazy expanding space time, the way these massive stars form in collapsing gases in an fight between gravity and pressure. The various forces of waves and particles, constantly mixing it up or down to try to get to a stable state, a half life, creating more unstable explosive states in the process. Low entropy continually moving to high entropy, back and forth until high entropy finally wins and this whole places gets so tired it enters it's eternal sleep. No more big stars blowing their heavy elements out into space, no more clouds of gas collapsing into stars, stars into brown dwarfs or black holes. This place thrives on chaos and order and it's wants it both ways, kind of like some religions we know. I guess the psychotic god of the OT is a pretty good descriptor of the chaotic universe we are in...but I don't think stars war with each other over which type or sequence is better, it's elemental masses for them. But maybe there's a cast system among stars. After all, IDKSAF!

But what the actual taffy pull Fk was this universe thinking when it came up with sapiens?! We must be the great cosmic joke of this existence. The more I learn and think about it, the more it baffles me. I'm a carbon based meat computer conundrum of hyperbole. Now where's that damn asteroid!?
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by alas » Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:58 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 12:17 pm
alas wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:36 am
There is always some man telling us we misunderstand. And that *spirit* children will not require 9 months of pregnancy and *spirit* children are not created through physical bodies having sex and bla bla bla.
Here's how it works. Men get to have sex as often as they want. More sex just means more celestial sperm cells in the woman's holding tank. Meanwhile she is squirting out an endless stream of little Casper ghost babies like some kind of celestial firehose. Do the math. If you want to populate that new planet your husband just assembled from Matter Unorganized you're gonna need a hundred billion or so spirits ready to launch from own personal pre-existence world. Let's say the 9-month gestation is a purely earthly thing, and hubbie-god gives you a generous thousand years to birth all of the kids for his new planet. That's still three babies per second you're birthing. It may take a little longer because he'll probably want you to stop pumping them out whenever he wants to get in there and add more seed to your reservoir. After all, thinking Celestial IS about men getting all the sex they want, isn't it?
That would work better if two people were both pumping out millions of sperm, the sperm then could just combine in pairs, and incubate in some huge vat, and just skip women as too inefficient. Two men could do a much more efficient job, and after all, each woman only has a few hundred eggs, so just not going to work to use women at all. They work for this earth, but not for the billions of spirits needed for a planet. Perhaps that is why Jesus and the father created the earth, and put Adam and Eve on it. No women involved. So, why we don’t know anything about any mother in Heaven is because there isn’t one. Just a couple of men who pump out sperm by the millions.

Sorry, you heterosexuals, but it looks like the Celestial kingdom is gay.

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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:10 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 1:54 pm
We must be the great cosmic joke of this existence. The more I learn and think about it, the more it baffles me. I'm a carbon based meat computer conundrum of hyperbole. Now where's that damn asteroid!?
It's all the work of a bored trickster god. An entire evolutionary process just to create the most ridiculous creatures possible, an experiment that is finally drawing to its close in a certain white tower in a certain city in the western part of a continent on a certain planet.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:37 am

alas wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:58 pm
That would work better if two people were both pumping out millions of sperm, the sperm then could just combine in pairs, and incubate in some huge vat, and just skip women as too inefficient... Just a couple of men who pump out sperm by the millions.

Sorry, you heterosexuals, but it looks like the Celestial kingdom is gay.
Alas, reading your post made me feel The Spirit, so I know it's true. I now know, with every fiber of my being, that the ancient Egyptian religion is the one and only true church. The myth goes like this:

The most ancient god was Atum (Adam?!) who is considered both the god and father of the divine kings. Atum created the universe by masturbating and ejaculating it into existence, and from his sperm also came the early gods. Sometimes this act is attributed to Ra, who like Atum is a creator/sun god. Since we're talking religion here we might as well apply some apologetics to make it fit your inspired translation of The Proclamation and assume they were two individuals, simultaneously wanking out the human race.

Which religion should we give more respect? The Egyptian creation story predates the Book of Abraham version by about 5,000 years. Both stories claim to be written on ancient Egyptian scrolls. Only one is.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by alas » Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:22 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:37 am
alas wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 6:58 pm
That would work better if two people were both pumping out millions of sperm, the sperm then could just combine in pairs, and incubate in some huge vat, and just skip women as too inefficient... Just a couple of men who pump out sperm by the millions.

Sorry, you heterosexuals, but it looks like the Celestial kingdom is gay.
Alas, reading your post made me feel The Spirit, so I know it's true. I now know, with every fiber of my being, that the ancient Egyptian religion is the one and only true church. The myth goes like this:

The most ancient god was Atum (Adam?!) who is considered both the god and father of the divine kings. Atum created the universe by masturbating and ejaculating it into existence, and from his sperm also came the early gods. Sometimes this act is attributed to Ra, who like Atum is a creator/sun god. Since we're talking religion here we might as well apply some apologetics to make it fit your inspired translation of The Proclamation and assume they were two individuals, simultaneously wanking out the human race.

Which religion should we give more respect? The Egyptian creation story predates the Book of Abraham version by about 5,000 years. Both stories claim to be written on ancient Egyptian scrolls. Only one is.
Which is consistent with the Zoroastrian God who would rain down his sperm onto the lake where his selected virgin was bathing to impregnate her so she could give birth to the Savior.

I was impressed that they at least had a theory for how the Virgin could get pregnant, unlike the Christian God who doesn’t use sperm and has the Holy Ghost…..wait, so the Savior is really the son of the Holy Ghost, not the Father…I am confused. Let alone the Mormon God who has sex with his chosen virgin, thus she is no longer a virgin, negating the whole prophecy that a virgin would give birth.

Which goes back to the theory that God is gay and wouldn’t want to have sex with a female, so he deposits his sperm in a lake rather than stoop to sex.


Speaking of homosexuality, Shadrak, Meshad, and Abendigo, and Danial were taken captive from Jerusalem and taken to Babylon as young boys and put in the care of the Kings Unic and the palace unic was in charge of the kings *harem*. Think about this for a minute, they were young boys and the palace unic was the one taking charge of them and his normal job is the kings harem. The boy were there as the kings homosexual boy toys. No wonder Danial was close to the king. He was a favorite wife. Why does the Bible leave out and only hint at that? But there was nothing at all unrighteous in Danial’s position of a favorite of the king, until like his friends he was caught praying to his Hebrew god.

You know, the Bible gets really interesting when you read between the lines. But the between the lines sure wasn’t taught in primary when we studied Danial and the lions.

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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by Bonfire » Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:29 am

deacon blues wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:37 am
The Mormon concept of the next life is a can of worms with multiple dangling threads, and with the skimpily simplistic explanation: "God will work it all out."
It's very simple. You can create new bodies in any combination, because you know yourself.

The Kingdoms loosely describe what is possible. In some sense or another, yes, it's a can of worms because that's your light, changing universes.

Some become people while you're building worlds. It's up to them because your consciousnesses grow them. Reassemble into a human body: Resurrection. There's so much more than that, though.
“Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God; “For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him” (D&C 18:10–11).

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Hagoth
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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:42 am

Bonfire wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:29 am
deacon blues wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2023 6:37 am
The Mormon concept of the next life is a can of worms with multiple dangling threads, and with the skimpily simplistic explanation: "God will work it all out."
It's very simple. You can create new bodies in any combination, because you know yourself.

The Kingdoms loosely describe what is possible. In some sense or another, yes, it's a can of worms because that's your light, changing universes.

Some become people while you're building worlds. It's up to them because your consciousnesses grow them. Reassemble into a human body: Resurrection. There's so much more than that, though.
All of this stuff becomes problematic when you read the conflicting versions from Joseph Smith himself. One version is a very physical/sexual thing that seems to be a model for Joseph's own Nauvoo lifestyle. Human men become exalted gods if they check off all the boxes. They have many wives, so they can have bloodline dynasties and rule over kingdoms, dominions, and principalities. This requires lots and lots of procreation to create children to populate the planets they build. In this version there is a chain of gods, going back eternally, each with a father and mother who literally gave birth to their spirits in some mysterious way out of a primordial substance called "intelligence."

In another version, all of us - God/Jesus (the being Joseph sometimes called Jehovah-Elohim), and everyone who would ever be born in the universe - already existed from eternity as "intelligences" (plural), but one of these was the greater intelligence, becoming the original
God whose desire was to nurture us lesser intelligences to be more like him. Those cosmologies are mutually exclusive. In the first version the universe is filled with countless gods, each with their own vast family tree, including the infamous baby and toddler gods. In the other version there can only be one god with no ancestors or literal offspring.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: One Can of Worms... out of many.

Post by moksha » Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:58 pm

alas wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:36 am
There is always some man telling us we misunderstand. And that *spirit* children will not require 9 months of pregnancy and *spirit* children are not created through physical bodies having sex and bla bla bla.
That apologetic would not get very far with Joseph and the early Mormon polygamists. They wanted endless sex and what that would mean for the sister-wives was none of their concern. Modern apologetics, however, exists to deceive.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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