Obsessed with growth

[Hagoth]

After the demise of church-approved polygamy, leaders and members were thrashing around for new things to replace it. Polygamy had set Mormons apart from the world and (in their own minds) made their belief system superior to everyone else's. Now they had to come up with new constructs to reassure themselves that they were still superior to other faiths.

The Word of Wisdom was one of them. They added it to the recommend questions and made it a requirement for receiving saving ordinances. They became ultra-critical of members not only sipping the occasional tea, but even going into places where people are drinking coffee or alcohol. Stand in holy places. If people see you there they might think you aren't towing the line, which makes the church's control look weak.

Another was the eternal family. Having the proper Mormon nuclear family is a fist that they shove in everyone's face, to the point they issued a Proclamation to the Freakin' World, and actively opposed the legality of non-church-approved marriages.

But I think the theme of growth has been one of the church's biggest points of pride, and one they have really used as a foundation for building the corporate ego. How many times in our youth did we hear it proudly announced that ours was the fastest growing church in the world? It was VERY important to our self image as a religion, to the point that we were the only religion that blanketed the planet with full-time missionaries to rake in as many converts as possible. When conversions began to decline, what did they do? They pumped the number of missionaries up to as high as 80,000 and used that as evidence to the members that the church is growing. What did they do when even that didn't work? They started playing games with the numbers. Intimidating local leaders to make false reports, splitting wards and stakes to create the illusion of growth. Finally they settled on just being outright dishonest. They stopped publishing and announcing growth numbers and started having people like Elder Holland make false claims about the numbers of new units formed, while ignoring the collapse of others.

In the end it's a losing battle. What to do?

I think this compulsive need for growth is the real reason for the latest revelations about the church's obsession with amassing wealth. Up there in the ivory tower they realize they will never grow endlessly like the stone cut out of a mountain that they imagined themselves to be. How else then can you grow God's Kingdom on Earth? In the temple Satan says, " I will take the treasures of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, popes and priests, and reign with blood and horror on the earth!" It started when, like the Word of Wisdom, giving money to the church became an essential commandment that dictated whether you were worthy of saving ordinances.

The temple Satan teaches us that if you have enough gold and silver you can grow endlessly in power. So the church just does what its apologists are so good at. It redefines growth as financial wealth and goes full steam ahead in that direction to please God with their ability to grow His kingdom financially if not demographically.

The painful difference is that they can't brag to the members about it. In fact, they have to actually lie to them about it, so it becomes a secret obsession of the men at the top. But still the essential driving force to convince themselves that they are superior to other churches.

[Mayan_Elephant]

After the demise of church-approved polygamy, leaders and members were thrashing around for new things to replace it. Polygamy had set Mormons apart from the world and (in their own minds) made their belief system superior to everyone else's. Now they had to come up with new constructs to reassure themselves that they were still superior to other faiths.

The Word of Wisdom was one of them. They added it to the recommend questions and made it a requirement for receiving saving ordinances. They became ultra-critical of members not only sipping the occasional tea, but even going into places where people are drinking coffee or alcohol. Stand in holy places. If people see you there they might think you aren't towing the line, which makes the church's control look weak.

Another was the eternal family. Having the proper Mormon nuclear family is a fist that they shove in everyone's face, to the point they issued a Proclamation to the Freakin' World, and actively opposed the legality of non-church-approved marriages.

But I think the theme of growth has been one of the church's biggest points of pride, and one they have really used as a foundation for building the corporate ego. How many times in our youth did we hear it proudly announced that ours was the fastest growing church in the world? It was VERY important to our self image as a religion, to the point that we were the only religion that blanketed the planet with full-time missionaries to rake in as many converts as possible. When conversions began to decline, what did they do? They pumped the number of missionaries up to as high as 80,000 and used that as evidence to the members that the church is growing. What did they do when even that didn't work? They started playing games with the numbers. Intimidating local leaders to make false reports, splitting wards and stakes to create the illusion of growth. Finally they settled on just being outright dishonest. They stopped publishing and announcing growth numbers and started having people like Elder Holland make false claims about the numbers of new units formed, while ignoring the collapse of others.

In the end it's a losing battle. What to do?

I think this compulsive need for growth is the real reason for the latest revelations about the church's obsession with amassing wealth. Up there in the ivory tower they realize they will never grow endlessly like the stone cut out of a mountain that they imagined themselves to be. How else then can you grow God's Kingdom on Earth? In the temple Satan says, " I will take the treasures of the earth, and with gold and silver I will buy up armies and navies, popes and priests, and reign with blood and horror on the earth!" It started when, like the Word of Wisdom, giving money to the church became an essential commandment that dictated whether you were worthy of saving ordinances.

The temple Satan teaches us that if you have enough gold and silver you can grow endlessly in power. So the church just does what its apologists are so good at. It redefines growth as financial wealth and goes full steam ahead in that direction to please God with their ability to grow His kingdom financially if not demographically.

The painful difference is that they can't brag to the members about it. In fact, they have to actually lie to them about it, so it becomes a secret obsession of the men at the top. But still the essential driving force to convince themselves that they are superior to other churches.

I tried to find a source for this topic that would fit this forum. I think this will do.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... rview.html

I built predictive financial models for investment banks, CBO's, hedge funds and all kinds of stuff. Growth - was always the primary input and extraction from those models. Everything we could gather for data was transformed and reloaded into models to predict or measure growth. Why? Because valuations (including valuations used for credit) are based on where things are going not where they been.

If you break the church into parts, the first two parts you will get are the corporations. One for the President and one for the Presiding Bishop, LOL!!!!! If you take those corporations and look at the parts, you will soon find that the "church" part of the church really is not a significant part of the organization at all. It is a big part of the image of the church and even part of the brand, obviously. But churching is not much in the grand organization of things. Well..... except for that cash flow stuff. And that cash flow stuff is cool for models, valuations, capital and business.

TLDR, growth is the primary valuation parameter for capital. The end.

[moksha]

If you take those corporations and look at the parts, you will soon find that the "church" part of the church really is not a significant part of the organization at all.

It is the get-out-of-tax-free part, as well as a major chunk of revenue.

[Mayan_Elephant]

If you take those corporations and look at the parts, you will soon find that the "church" part of the church really is not a significant part of the organization at all.

It is the get-out-of-tax-free part, as well as a major chunk of revenue.

Absolutely. It is recurring revenue, which is also a key component of their model. I suspect it is not keeping up with inflation. The other parts though - yowza.

[Hagoth]

Well bless their hearts. I'm sure Jesus will be so impressed with them when he comes again to find how rich he has become and how how strong the markets and banks remained right through the apocalypse, despite everyone's eyes melting and the flesh falling from their bones, the sun going dark, giant flying killer scorpion-monsters scouring the earth, the seas turning to poison, and rivers of blood running in the streets. "Well done, thou good and faithful servants. Now go sit in The Pit while I count this."

That's how you'll finally know withoutadoubt it's the true church. That and the fact that temples will finally outnumber Starbucks.

[Red Ryder]

If you break the church into parts, the first two parts you will get are the corporations. One for the President and one for the Presiding Bishop, LOL!!!!! If you take those corporations and look at the parts, you will soon find that the "church" part of the church really is not a significant part of the organization at all. It is a big part of the image of the church and even part of the brand, obviously. But churching is not much in the grand organization of things. Well..... except for that cash flow stuff. And that cash flow stuff is cool for models, valuations, capital and business.

TLDR, growth is the primary valuation parameter for capital. The end.

An org chart showing the breakout you describe would be a great visual for people to see. It would mirror the leadership org chart too.

Men leadership = business corporations
Women leadership = church part

[Mayan_Elephant]

Well bless their hearts. I'm sure Jesus will be so impressed with them when he comes again to find how rich he has become and how how strong the markets and banks remained right through the apocalypse, despite everyone's eyes melting and the flesh falling from their bones, the sun going dark, giant flying killer scorpion-monsters scouring the earth, the seas turning to poison, and rivers of blood running in the streets. "Well done, thou good and faithful servants. Now go sit in The Pit while I count this."

That's how you'll finally know withoutadoubt it's the true church. That and the fact that temples will finally outnumber Starbucks.

Lots to digest here, Sir Hagoth. Some of it tangent and some not.

The strength of the markets and banks - hmmmmm. This is something that has always piqued my interest in the context of the two corporations. Whether or not it is true, I do not know, but it is my understanding that the two corporations belong to the Nelson and before that, to Monson, and before that, to the great Real Estate Developer in whom god was well pleased.

Back in the way back Dathon and Ann days, we had a thread about this and I called Forbes Magazine and got the author of the Forbes List on the phone. It was crazy. I mean, it was a real "is this really you" moment. I asked why was Hinckley not on the list if his net worth was greater than all but Gates and that guy in Omaha. The answer - ready for this? "We exclude the wealth of despots and religion".

That is not a lie, though, it has been a while, it may be paraphrased.

We talked for a while about it and she pointed out that the wealth of someone like Saddam Hussein, cartel leaders, and Gaddafi are also excluded, largely because their wealth is impossible to quantify and subject to maintaining control. Similarly, religious wealth is subject to a control feature that they will not apply. And she made no bones about it, Hinckley was excluded for that reason. She pointed out that the wealth held by the Catholic entities is also excluded.

I have no doubt that Nelson's valuation in the markets and the bank/book value would put him in the top ten in the USA.

As for the snark? While it is snark, it is a dagger too. Look at this hope - do not look at the banks and assets behind the curtain. The concept is real.

[Mayan_Elephant]

If you break the church into parts, the first two parts you will get are the corporations. One for the President and one for the Presiding Bishop, LOL!!!!! If you take those corporations and look at the parts, you will soon find that the "church" part of the church really is not a significant part of the organization at all. It is a big part of the image of the church and even part of the brand, obviously. But churching is not much in the grand organization of things. Well..... except for that cash flow stuff. And that cash flow stuff is cool for models, valuations, capital and business.

TLDR, growth is the primary valuation parameter for capital. The end.

An org chart showing the breakout you describe would be a great visual for people to see. It would mirror the leadership org chart too.

Men leadership = business corporations
Women leadership = church part

We have passed one around. I have not seen it in a very long time.

[wtfluff]

If you break the church into parts, the first two parts you will get are the corporations. One for the President and one for the Presiding Bishop, LOL!!!!! If you take those corporations and look at the parts, you will soon find that the "church" part of the church really is not a significant part of the organization at all. It is a big part of the image of the church and even part of the brand, obviously. But churching is not much in the grand organization of things. Well..... except for that cash flow stuff. And that cash flow stuff is cool for models, valuations, capital and business.

TLDR, growth is the primary valuation parameter for capital. The end.

An org chart showing the breakout you describe would be a great visual for people to see. It would mirror the leadership org chart too.

Men leadership = business corporations
Women leadership = church part

We have passed one around. I have not seen it in a very long time.

The Corporations™ related to LDS-Inc. have changed a bit in recent years:

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comment ... egal_name/

[Mayan_Elephant]

The Corp. of the Presiding Bishop is renamed as the LDS Church sometime between June 5, 2019 and July, 8 2019. IIRC, the President, not the Presiding Bishop, is now the Corporate Sole.

The Corp. of the President is merged with the LDS Church and dissolved effective December 31, 2020.

Whoa. I had no idea. I have been referring to the two corporations sole and, look at that. Boy, lookey there how wrong I was.

[Red Ryder]

The Corp. of the Presiding Bishop is renamed as the LDS Church sometime between June 5, 2019 and July, 8 2019. IIRC, the President, not the Presiding Bishop, is now the Corporate Sole.

The Corp. of the President is merged with the LDS Church and dissolved effective December 31, 2020.

Whoa. I had no idea. I have been referring to the two corporations sole and, look at that. Boy, lookey there how wrong I was.

I read through the link Fluffy provided.

It seems the corp restructure could have been to protect the whole enchilada considering the billions in various portfolios? Does the timing align with the Ensign Peak whistleblower?

[wtfluff]

I read through the link Fluffy provided.

It seems the corp restructure could have been to protect the whole enchilada considering the billions in various portfolios? Does the timing align with the Ensign Peak whistleblower?

I have no idea about Ensign Peak timing.

I do know that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" did not exist as a legal entity until June, 2019. I promised to give everything, even my life to a Trademark™ in the Manti Polygamy Palace in the late 1980's. How does that work???

My wacko conspiracy theory is that cRusty F Nelson reads NOM, and other "anti" websites and got sick tired of all us wackos complaining that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" didn't even exist as a church, and he made the changes because of that. Or maybe cRusty and Gordo F Hinckley had an argument in the Talmage (420) room of the Salt Lake Polygamy Palace about the legality of the LDS-Inc.'s exsistence, and cRusty made the changes to spite Mr. Hinckley AGAIN.

IDKSAF.

[Mayan_Elephant]

I read through the link Fluffy provided.

It seems the corp restructure could have been to protect the whole enchilada considering the billions in various portfolios? Does the timing align with the Ensign Peak whistleblower?

I have no idea about Ensign Peak timing.

I do know that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" did not exist as a legal entity until June, 2019. I promised to give everything, even my life to a Trademark™ in the Manti Polygamy Palace in the late 1980's. How does that work???

My wacko conspiracy theory is that cRusty F Nelson reads NOM, and other "anti" websites and got sick tired of all us wackos complaining that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" didn't even exist as a church, and he made the changes because of that. Or maybe cRusty and Gordo F Hinckley had an argument in the Talmage (420) room of the Salt Lake Polygamy Palace about the legality of the LDS-Inc.'s exsistence, and cRusty made the changes to spite Mr. Hinckley AGAIN.

ITKSAF.

Was that supposed to be IDKSAF? I would go to Ruth's church. Ozark was nails. I want to write a book and the two main characters are going to be Ruth Langmore and Beth Dutton. Maybe I will call them Duth Bangmore and Reth Lutton, nobody will know.

I am still blown away by these name changes and reorgs.

[wtfluff]

I read through the link Fluffy provided.

It seems the corp restructure could have been to protect the whole enchilada considering the billions in various portfolios? Does the timing align with the Ensign Peak whistleblower?

I have no idea about Ensign Peak timing.

I do know that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" did not exist as a legal entity until June, 2019. I promised to give everything, even my life to a Trademark™ in the Manti Polygamy Palace in the late 1980's. How does that work???

My wacko conspiracy theory is that cRusty F Nelson reads NOM, and other "anti" websites and got sick tired of all us wackos complaining that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" didn't even exist as a church, and he made the changes because of that. Or maybe cRusty and Gordo F Hinckley had an argument in the Talmage (420) room of the Salt Lake Polygamy Palace about the legality of the LDS-Inc.'s exsistence, and cRusty made the changes to spite Mr. Hinckley AGAIN.

ITKSAF.

Was that supposed to be IDKSAF? I would go to Ruth's church. Ozark was nails. I want to write a book and the two main characters are going to be Ruth Langmore and Beth Dutton. Maybe I will call them Duth Bangmore and Reth Lutton, nobody will know.

I am still blown away by these name changes and reorgs.

Wait, what???

I Definitely DKSAF.

[Mayan_Elephant]

I have no idea about Ensign Peak timing.

I do know that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" did not exist as a legal entity until June, 2019. I promised to give everything, even my life to a Trademark™ in the Manti Polygamy Palace in the late 1980's. How does that work???

My wacko conspiracy theory is that cRusty F Nelson reads NOM, and other "anti" websites and got sick tired of all us wackos complaining that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" didn't even exist as a church, and he made the changes because of that. Or maybe cRusty and Gordo F Hinckley had an argument in the Talmage (420) room of the Salt Lake Polygamy Palace about the legality of the LDS-Inc.'s exsistence, and cRusty made the changes to spite Mr. Hinckley AGAIN.

ITKSAF.

Was that supposed to be IDKSAF? I would go to Ruth's church. Ozark was nails. I want to write a book and the two main characters are going to be Ruth Langmore and Beth Dutton. Maybe I will call them Duth Bangmore and Reth Lutton, nobody will know.

I am still blown away by these name changes and reorgs.

Wait, what???

I Definitely DKSAF.

https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/50182 ... 0182774D1V

[Hagoth]

The Corp. of the President is merged with the LDS Church and dissolved effective December 31, 2020.

Does the timing align with the Ensign Peak whistleblower?

Bingo! The whistleblower complaint also came out in December of 2020

But Nelson already had something in the works. Another interesting quote from Fluffy's link:

...a DBA (Doing Business As) filing was first completed for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on October 19, 2018. Which was 11 days after Russell Nelson reaffirmed "the correct name" of the LDS Church.

Interesting how revelation always happens to be convenient either for business or for the personal interests of leaders, or both.

[Hagoth]

I Definitely DKSAF.

That's just a stance of plausible deniability. I have observed that you K quite a bit of S about certain kinds of F.

[moksha]

The Swiss bank accounts are merely numbered.

[Hagoth]

A letter in yesterday's tribune points out some problems with the church's missionary number brag.

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/letters/ ... s-convert/

The author observes that the numbers the church is showing now are artificially high because of a huge spike caused by the dogpile of potential missionaries who had been waiting out COVID. Once they got the green light there was a rapid deployment of these kids and elders.

From the letter:

Although church authorities predicted the total would rise to a “baseline” of 100,000 by 2019, it instead fell to 65,137 in 2018. Despite the record missionary numbers in 2013 and 2014, the membership growth rate plunged, shockingly, to the lowest levels since 1947, where it remains.

Totals of young full-time missionaries, convert baptisms, baptisms per missionary and the membership growth rate have become dismal data points for the church. Moreover, the fastest LDS growth is in impoverished Third World countries, while most advanced nations see little or no growth. None of this is likely to change anytime soon.

I don't know if he is correct about all of this, but if so the numbers should plummet just as precipitously by the end of next year. I will be curious to see how forthcoming the church will be with missionary numbers after that happens.

[Bonfire]

This growth obsession is not challenging to correct. Check this out: There's a digital currency called Feathercoin and there are shield pennies available pretty much everywhere.

At ftcfaucet.tk you can get Feathercoin once you solve a captcha. Get Edge Wallet on two or more devices then import your master key everywhere you have the app installed so you don't lose your Feathercoin. Put shield pennies into 2-Liter bottles. Every filled liter is $10 so don't trade to anyone that doesn't have a filled 2-Liter (or 1 Dash). Don't accept less than $10.00 for each Feathercoin.

With everything going up in price, the sane response is to distribute money. That's what the government has done with the stimulus checks.

Ask your Landlord to buy some Feathercoin to pay some rent with this money. Accept Feathercoin for maintaining their property or doing chores.

Want to build the colleges we have been discussing? Hold onto your 2-Liters (or Dash) and your Feathercoin then unite with like-minded members on NOM.

2,500 people with $500.00 (an average security deposit) adds up to $1,250,000 and that goes a long way.