Tithing Unsettlement

[græy]

Hi Everyone!

I haven't been around for a while. IRL I'm still alive, still PIMO, still acting as bishop. I occasionally find my way here and lurk in some of the topics checking on how everyone is doing. But I just don't have the energy to write much up. Bishoping literally eats all the energy I have to give to church related topics.

This past Sunday I completed tithing declarations (R)(TM)2022 for our ward, and what an abysmal turnout it was. I don't have it in me to seek out each and every person within our 507 person membership (27% active) and engage in asking the age old question of all import - "Did you give us all your money?". Instead I post a sign-up sheet on my door, ask the Executive Secretary to send out a ward-wide email and announce that people are free to come sign up for a time that suits them.

Last year, that effort resulted in interviews with ~25% of the ward - most of the active membership. This year, I only met in person with ~16%. Meaning about 9% of the active members intentionally dodged or at least procrastinated meeting with me until I closed up shop. *shrug*

On the very last day of declaration meetings, I found the reason some of the active members were procrastinating. On that day, three families all confessed to having stopped or reduced tithing payments out of concern with the church's settlement with the SEC (https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35).

All three of these families were amongst those who were on the short lists for leadership callings in the future. One of the three still didn't actually meet with me, they just emailed in their concerns.

In all three cases I thanked them for their honesty and integrity - doing what felt best for them in terms of being in line with the values the church itself has taught them they should have. I let them know that I was fully aware of the SEC issues, having followed it in depth while it was unfolding, but that I had no way to reconcile it myself let alone provide answers for them. Since spouses were all in sync within each of the three families, I commended them for being able and willing to communicate with each other and move together as couples and families. Finally, I let them know that I was available to continue the discussion or talk about any other questions they might have going forward.

The whole exchange left me wondering though, if this is something the church has seen across its full membership, or at least widespread in the US? I definitely want more light shined on the subject. Church leadership shouldn't be able to intentionally break the law to hide information simply don't want to be publicized and then sweep it under the rug and forget all about it. Actions like that speak directly to the character of the church leadership, and the moral standing of the church itself. Especially so for a church that claims to be the only true and living church on the face of the whole Earth.

[græy]

I also thought it was relevant to point out that all three families noted their concern over the SEC settlement had way more to do with broken trust than the amount of money the church had.

According to Bishop Waddell, the church broke the law for ~20 years in order to keep the amount of money in their accounts hidden. That now seems like a HUGE miscalculation of what the membership is actually concerned about. As it turns out, members of God's church, followers of God's only prophet, expect HONESTY from said prophet and said organization.

It seems like a lot of TBMs are proud of how much money the church has, they see it as a sign of divine favor. But when members start to see the church actively lying about anything that changes the equation.

[Gatorbait]

Great post. Thanks for sharing. Never had a bishop divulge inside info like this. Never had any idea so few people paid tithing in the active rank and file. Seems like the wealthier you are, the easier it is to pay, but a lot of the wealthy are pretty stingy with their moola, don't pay and say they do.

Regarding breaking the law...please. Good on paper, but not for realzeese. From a website: "It is said in the Doctrine and Covenants, that he that keepeth the laws of God, hath no need to break the laws of the land. It is further explained in section 98, what is meant in relation to this."

No need the break the law of the land? That's rich. How about not paying your debts? Through the years, and there have been many, where I've been stiffed by "temple worthy" Mormons, and Mormon employees have stolen from me countless times. What about that? Oh....right, right, right....it's the imperfect "saint's" and not the "perfect" church, as you said, the only one and only best and dandy number one and no other church. Perfecto.

I agree with a lot of scriptures in the D&C, including the ones who say to forgive, because I'm stuck in the rut of not forgetting and forgiving the slugs who have stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars from me and stolen all sorts of things from me. "Therein lies the greater sin- not forgiving." Just when I'm getting to the point where I can forgive, someone does it again. Happened two months ago. Big theft. Big Mormon- former BYU basketball player. Whew. He moved out of state and good luck tracking him down. Not worth it. He will just do it somewhere else to someone else. Should have seen it coming. Wonder if he paid tithing on the money he out-right stole from me? Probably not.

In any case- great insightful post nob one.

[Not Buying It]

I always kind of assumed the SEC problems were only a concern for ex-Mormons, most members don't seem to be real shook up by anything. Perhaps I was wrong. Or perhaps these are members who were questioning anyway. For most members it seems like whatever shield they have up to protect their belief is darn near impenetrable.

[Linked]

It's great to hear from you græy! I appreciate your posts, they help me have some empathy for the bishops out there just trying to help people. My TBM wife was more than happy to stop attending tithing settlement when I became PIMO, I suspect that there are plenty of full believers that would rather not go to the awkward annual money meeting.

3 active families in one ward stopping their tithing due to the SEC settlement seems like a really big deal. If enough people stop paying tithing on moral grounds then the church will have to deal with decriminalizing non-tithers or risk losing them completely. The SEC settlement was punishment for misleading other investors and the market, but the real reason the church leaders did it was to hide the church's wealth from tithe paying members. It was to deceive the most ardent believers. I'm glad that some of them are taking this for the slap in the face that it is.

[deacon blues]

You don't have to answer this question Graey, but I am wondering: do you emphasize tithing a lot? Do you think a vigorous campaign to increase tithing settlement attendance next year would make a difference?

[wtfluff]

As with the previous post, if you don't feel like answering my questions, please ignore dear Graey-Bispo:

Are the 3 noted families temple recommend holders?

Do you consider them "Temple Worthy' and/or would you give them temple recommends? (If they ask.)



May any and/or all divine presences/personages that might exist in the universe bless you beyond your wildest dreams for your sacrifice Graey. (I don't think I could have done bishop even as a believer.)

[moksha]

I understand the Church's dilemma. When you practice being deceptive in all things, it is hard to shift gears and tell the truth when it comes to legal filings.

Bishop Graey's ward is lucky that he is honest.

[Angel]

Honesty is big for me too. When I turned my temple recommend in it wasn't because of tithes - don't want to think about how much $ was dumped there. I went in person to turn it in, was pretty hard on my bishop. He refused to take my tr from me, so I laid it on his desk.

The priesthood is supposed to protect (kids)
Supposed to be a judge in Israel - hold abusers accountable.
You listen to lies, give tr's to liars, call evil good and I suppose will call me evil for putting child welfare above forgiveness.

It was more than 70 x 7. Multiple kids, 18 years of videos of abuse. More than 70x7.

Lies God protects. Lies priesthood protects. Lies lies lies.

He was a young bishop, not the smartest, bumbling bobblehead hand-waving bystander. So many bystanders. Evil prevailed because bystanders did nothing. Actually, they raised their hand and confirmed him - we all did, sustained that pedophile in front of the kids he abused. The "spirit" is a lie too, not from God- just elevation herd bonding instinct. That feeling lies. Lies, lies, lies.

He wouldn't look me in the eye. Like a little embarrassed guilty kid - wouldn't look me in the eye, and wouldn't touch my tr I put on the desk.

I do not have faith in God.
I have a testimony this church is evil.
I paid in full. God, did we all pay.

Years now, he's still in jail, getting kicked around- surprised he's not dead yet. Pedophiles aren't popular in prison.

The holidays are difficult. The kids. They're messed up. It doesn't refine, it leaves you mentally ill.

[græy]

You don't have to answer this question Graey, but I am wondering: do you emphasize tithing a lot? Do you think a vigorous campaign to increase tithing settlement attendance next year would make a difference?

I do not emphasize tithing in any way shape or form. That may be part of the reason for this downturn.

I am confident that if I was more pro-active in making appointments, or at least more vocal in asking individuals to come in it would probably tick upwards. But between family, work, health, and everything I'm already dealing with at the church I simply don't have time for more.

[græy]

As with the previous post, if you don't feel like answering my questions, please ignore dear Graey-Bispo:

Are the 3 noted families temple recommend holders?

Do you consider them "Temple Worthy' and/or would you give them temple recommends? (If they ask.)

They are all current temple recommend holders. In any future recommend interviews I will follow the handbook and ask the prescribed questions. If the individual answers the tithing question in the affirmative I won't dig any further and likely issue a recommend. If they outright say no to that question, then I think the only honest path is to deny a recommend (its the church's club and we should play by their rules). That said, if they said no, they instantly gain massive integrity points and gain a few levels of respect from me (not that that is worth anything).

[blazerb]

They are all current temple recommend holders. In any future recommend interviews I will follow the handbook and ask the prescribed questions. If the individual answers the tithing question in the affirmative I won't dig any further and likely issue a recommend. If they outright say no to that question, then I think the only honest path is to deny a recommend (its the church's club and we should play by their rules). That said, if they said no, they instantly gain massive integrity points and gain a few levels of respect from me (not that that is worth anything).

Do you think that, if you just give them a temple recommend, that the SP will or a counselor will cause any problems? I'm curious what the relationship might be there. As everyone else said, if this should not be answered, I understand.

[alas]

My last active child has stopped paying tithing over this issue. He talked more with his Dad than he did with me, so I don’t know many details about how active he and his wife intend to be in the future. His wife was struggling with feminist issues, and the church’s dishonesty was kind of a final straw. So, I am not surprised that three families in your ward are bothered by it.

[græy]

Do you think that, if you just give them a temple recommend, that the SP will or a counselor will cause any problems? I'm curious what the relationship might be there. As everyone else said, if this should not be answered, I understand.

I assume if they tell me they pay tithing, then they'll say the same the the SP. I really do think our SP and his counselors are good men. I don't think they actually care to dig into receipts to verify everything everyone says. They have told us that how people answer their interview questions is between them and God. We don't need to dig up anything beyond the outlined questions unless they confess questions, concerns, or sins.

[Hagoth]

The SEC settlement was punishment for misleading other investors and the market, but the real reason the church leaders did it was to hide the church's wealth from tithe paying members. It was to deceive the most ardent believers.

And if they are so eager to lie about that I think it's safe to assume that there are many other things they are willing to lie to members about.

Thank you Greay for giving us a glimpse into your world!

[Red Ryder]

Bishop of the Year!!!!

If I was Bishop:

One temple recommend for you! And you! And you!

Like Oprah…: everyone gets a temple recommend!

[Conman52]

I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your posts graey !!!! I love your honesty . Bishop of the year------ Absolutely!!!!! I wish you were my bishop. I bet the church is rapidly losing people over this one , they will never admit it though. I just feel better about going to the temple because I like my covert coffee !!!!

[moksha]

Like Oprah…: everyone gets a temple recommend!

Simply wanting to attend should be enough.

[blazerb]

Like Oprah…: everyone gets a temple recommend!

Simply wanting to attend should be enough.

I agree, but the little economic psychology I have heard makes me wonder: if anyone could go to the temple who wanted to, would the lack of scarcity mean that no one actually wants to? Would anyone go if just anyone could go? If I'm being honest with myself, one of the main reasons I kept a temple recommend for all those years was because it made me more special than most people. The ceremony is not very uplifting to me. Sorry for drifting off topic.

I'll tie it back in. Not only would no one pay tithing if everyone could go to the temple, the temples would probably be even more empty. Not much of a tie in, I guess.

[moksha]

I agree, but the little economic psychology I have heard makes me wonder: if anyone could go to the temple who wanted to, would the lack of scarcity mean that no one actually wants to? Would anyone go if just anyone could go? If I'm being honest with myself, one of the main reasons I kept a temple recommend for all those years was because it made me more special than most people.

Ah, the Rockefeller Effect. With exclusivity and payment, templegoers can feel they have diamonds on the soles of their shoes.