Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

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Corsair
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Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by Corsair » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:44 am

Some of you know that I was somehow asked to speak in my ward last June. This is further evidence that my ward leadership truly does not know my real feelings on the LDS church. So I made sure to include a couple of eyebrow raising quotes in my talk which you are welcome to read. I thought it was a decent talk and my stake president in attendance did agree. The talk included a quote from Fight Club:
Chuck Palahniuk wrote:“We don't have a great war in our generation, or a great depression, but we do, we have a great war of the spirit. We have a great revolution against the culture. The great depression is our lives. We have a spiritual depression.”
There was also a Christopher Hitchens quote:
Christopher Hitchens wrote:If god really wanted people to be free of [wicked thoughts], he should have taken more care to invent a different species.
The "Fight Club" quote did lead the bishopric to ask me to work with some of the more challenging youth in the ward. The figured that anyone with a strong enough testimony(!) to quote from Fight Club was obviously a good fit to fellowship the youth flirting with apostasy. I subsequently took this opportunity to encourage one young man to skip going on a mission and instead focus on being kind to his parents and pursuing an engineering degree.

What are some other good quotes from non-church sources that work in a sacrament talk? No doubt I am looking for quotes that let the closet NOMs or quiet unbelievers know that they can safely talk to me. I want quotes that show that some of the best ideas did not originate with someone holding an "elder" or "president" honorific in front their name-with-a-sacred-middle-initial. What good quotes from non-church sources do you have?

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Hagoth
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by Hagoth » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:35 am

Today I understand that Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who does not participate enthusiastically -Robert Kirby

“People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they’re not on your road doesn’t mean they’ve gotten lost.” ― Dalai Lama XIV

“Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.” – Christopher Hitchens

"Those who think they know it all have no way of finding out they don't." -Leo Buscaglia

I first found faith, and thought I had all truth. I then discovered doubt, and claimed a more accurate truth. Now I’ve greeted paradox and a deeper truth than I have ever known. --Anon

"Doubt is uncomfortable, certainty is ridiculous." --Voltaire

If we achieve only a fraction of enlightenment and leave the world marginally better because we have lived in it, our lives will have been worthwhile. ~Karen Armstrong

"....creating a new theory is not like destroying an old barn and erecting a skyscraper in it's place. It is rather climbing a mountain, gaining new and wider views, discovering unexpected connections between our starting-point and its rich environment. But the point from which we started out still exists and can be seen, although it appears smaller and forms a tiny part our our broad view gained by the mastery of the obstacles on our adventures on the way up." -Albert Einstein

It is not good enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well. -Rene Descartes

Honest discussions - even and perhaps especially on topics about which we disagree - can help us resist hypocrisy and arrogance. They can also help us live up to the basic ideals, such as liberty and justice for all, on which our country was founded. --David E. Price

“Do what you feel in your heart to be right – for you’ll be criticized anyway” - Eleanor Roosevelt

"...and be secure in knowing that what's in our heart today, may be wrong, or based on incomplete info or lack of experience.... because we are free to change our minds both about what we feel and what is right." - Soultana Nolidis

"Be grateful for your doubts.... It is the tension, the irresolution, the ambiguity and perplexity of [our] predicament that is the spur to [our] growth.... It [is] in the midst of [our] perplexity, of [our] obstinate questions, uncertainties, misgivings, and shadowy recollections that almost but don't quite pierce the veil, that [we find] the prompt, the agitation, the catalyst that [spurs us] from complacency to insight, from generic pleasures to revelatory illumination, from being a thing acted upon to being an actor in the quest for [our] spiritual identity. I know that I am grateful for the propensity to doubt, because it gives me the capacity to freely believe." - Teryl Givens

“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” -Bertrand Russell

"To trust your mind and to know that one is worthy of happiness is the essence of self-esteem." - Dr. Nathaniel Branden

“Religion is like a pair of shoes.....Find one that fits for you, but don't make me wear your shoes.” -George Carlin

" If everyone practiced being themselves instead of pretending to be what they aren't there would be more peace." -John Lennon
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by Hagoth » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:36 am

Corsair wrote:he "Fight Club" quote did lead the bishopric to ask me to work with some of the more challenging youth in the ward. The figured that anyone with a strong enough testimony(!) to quote from Fight Club was obviously a good fit to fellowship the youth flirting with apostasy.
So, are you considering starting a stake fight club?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Corsair
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by Corsair » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:45 am

Hagoth wrote:So, are you considering starting a stake fight club?
My stake president is my age and in pretty good shape. He would be a tough fight. But I'm pretty sure I could beat his two counselors. I would be happier with a solid debate club but that's not going to happen either.

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SeeNoEvil
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by SeeNoEvil » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:59 am

Great collection of quotes ... all that I just added to my quote folder. Pretty gutsy of you to inject these quotes into your talk and now counsel with the youth. Here's my counter quote to Uchtdorfs quote on doubts:

"Cherish your doubts, for doubt is the attendant of truth. Doubt is the key to the door of knowledge; it is the servant of discovery. A belief which may not be questioned binds us to error, for there is incompleteness and imperfection in every belief. Doubt is the touchstone of truth; it is an acid which eats away the false. Let no one fear for the truth, that doubt may consume it; for doubt is a testing of belief. The truth stands boldly and unafraid; it is not shaken by the testing; For truth, if it be truth, arises from each testing stronger, more secure. Those that would silence doubt are filled with fear; their houses are built on shifting sands. But those who fear not doubt, and know its use; are founded on rock. They shall walk in the light of growing knowledge; the work of their hands shall endure. Therefore let us not fear doubt, but let us rejoice in its help: It is to the wise as a staff to the blind; doubt is the attendant of truth." - Robert T. Weston, Unitarian Universalist Minister

Here's 2 more I love:

"I still believe. I believe that no person or group of persons is inferior to any other. I believe that what matters is not so much what we believe, but how conduct ourselves for these few short, fragile years of being alive. I believe that experiencing the beauty and wonder of the universe, including this pale blue dot in the remote comer of our galaxy, is an indescribably wonderful privilege." - Bob Ripley’s book, “Life Beyond Belief: A Preacher's Deconversion.” (chapter 11)

KNOWLEDGE is the key.
*Always learning and challenging assumptions
*Never believing that we have arrived
*Identifying flawed thinking & biases & overcoming them
If we never stop and discover HOW it was that we were
duped by Mormonism, we will very quickly fall back into similar
traps again - Dan Williams
"Every event that has taken place in this universe has led you to this moment.
... The real question is, what will you do with this moment?" - Unknown

"Never arrive @ a point where you know everything - Korihor57

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DPRoberts
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by DPRoberts » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:23 pm

“I admire men and women who have developed the questing spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent–if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression… This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences. … We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it.”

— Hugh B. Brown

“I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.”

— Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 5:340

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”

– President J. Reuben Clark
Here's three goodies that were probably mentioned countless times on the old board. I particularly like the J. Reuben Clark quote. Can you imagine a current church leader saying that one? If they did it would be either extreme ignorance or a bluff.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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fh451
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by fh451 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:56 am

Corsair wrote:
Hagoth wrote:So, are you considering starting a stake fight club?
My stake president is my age and in pretty good shape. He would be a tough fight. But I'm pretty sure I could beat his two counselors. I would be happier with a solid debate club but that's not going to happen either.
The first rule of Debate Club is you don't talk about Debate Club.

fh451

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deacon blues
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by deacon blues » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:56 am

The Pre-existence.... resistance was futile-- Robert Kirby
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Newme
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by Newme » Tue May 21, 2019 11:50 am

Corsair wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:45 am
Hagoth wrote:So, are you considering starting a stake fight club?
My stake president is my age and in pretty good shape. He would be a tough fight. But I'm pretty sure I could beat his two counselors. I would be happier with a solid debate club but that's not going to happen either.
:D It is proposed that Corsair be sustained as Stake Debate Club President. All in favor? Any opposed? It’s unanimous! Let’s hope the club is a bit less agreeable. :)

I’m not 100% joking. You know how, with the 2-hour block,we are now encouraged to get together to discuss gospel issues outside of church? If someone started a debate club, or maybe to sound less contentious, named it, (let’s see a synonym for debate...) “Ding-Dong Club” - and have ding-dongs for refreshments, I imagine there’d be lots of interest - I’d go!

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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue May 21, 2019 12:19 pm

I"ll never forget years ago when the one fringe hippy dude in our ward spoke in SM and quoted a line from a Nine Inch Nails song. I can't remember which line or song it was, but I think I was the only one in the audience that recognized the source. After the meeting I congratulated him on probably being the only one to ever get away with quoting that band in an SM talk.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Newme
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by Newme » Tue May 21, 2019 12:40 pm

I love this thread - and good quotes!

Image

“Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”

“If everyone’s thinking alike somebody isn’t thinking.” -GGatton

“What we see depends mainly on what we look for.” -Sir J Lubbock

“We don’t see things the way they are. We see things the way we are.” -Talmund

“It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows.” -Epictetus

“It is no measure of health to he well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” -J Krishnamurti

“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.” - Shakespeare

“It is easier to believe a lie one has heard a hundred times before than to believe a truth one is hearing for the 1st time.”

“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.” - Gustave Le Bon

“Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” - Friedrich Nietzsche.

“Faith declares what the senses do not see, but not the contrary of what they see.” - Pascal

Image

“There’s nothing that can help you understand your beliefs more than trying to explain them to an inquisitive child.” -F Clark

“Man is rated the highest animal, at least among those animals who returned the survey.”

“Ask your doctor if taking a pill to solve all your problems is right for you.”

“Sometimes the grass is greener on the side with the most bull s-it.”

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Corsair
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by Corsair » Wed May 22, 2019 8:56 am

Newme wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:50 am
:D It is proposed that Corsair be sustained as Stake Debate Club President. All in favor? Any opposed? It’s unanimous! Let’s hope the club is a bit less agreeable. :)

I’m not 100% joking. You know how, with the 2-hour block,we are now encouraged to get together to discuss gospel issues outside of church? If someone started a debate club, or maybe to sound less contentious, named it, (let’s see a synonym for debate...) “Ding-Dong Club” - and have ding-dongs for refreshments, I imagine there’d be lots of interest - I’d go!
It's kind of weird that we now have home study in family groups. The institutional church actually warned us against "study groups" in the 80s and 90s because it led to apostasy. Steve Benson was part of a group that led to him running across difficult material. Well, that and knowing the true mental state of his prophet grandfather in the early 1990s.

I see how we are encouraged to meet in our families using the approved manual. The church is just a half step away from telling us to not get together with friends in a group because they know that this is where the crazy ideas come up. This is where the message of Denver Snuffer gets evangelized as well as the uncorrelated version of plural marriage. Stick to the manual and stay in your small family groups, preferably with your children so that you are less likely to bring up the problems with Book of Abraham translation issues or Book of Mormon horses and chariots. Non-family groups is where the gospel topic essays get publicly mentioned.

On the rare occasions that I teach or talk in church, I try to insert some Christopher Hitchens quote because it's amusing. He has some surprisingly helpful quotes, even for a believing audience.
Christopher Hitchens wrote:To be the father of growing daughters is to understand something of what Yeats evokes with his imperishable phrase ‘terrible beauty.’ Nothing can make one so happily exhilarated or so frightened: it’s a solid lesson in the limitations of self to realize that your heart is running around inside someone else’s body.

“You should be nicer to him,” a schoolmate had once said to me of some awfully ill-favored boy. “He has no friends.” This, I realized with a pang of pity that I can still remember, was only true as long as everybody agreed to it.

Religion is part of the human make-up. It's also part of our cultural and intellectual history. Religion was our first attempt at literature, the texts, our first attempt at cosmology, making sense of where we are in the universe, our first attempt at health care, believing in faith healing, our first attempt at philosophy.

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Newme
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Re: Apostate Quotes for Faithful Talks

Post by Newme » Wed May 22, 2019 4:06 pm

Corsair wrote:
It's kind of weird that we now have home study in family groups. The institutional church actually warned us against "study groups" in the 80s and 90s because it led to apostasy. Steve Benson was part of a group that led to him running across difficult material. Well, that and knowing the true mental state of his prophet grandfather in the early 1990s.

I see how we are encouraged to meet in our families using the approved manual. The church is just a half step away from telling us to not get together with friends in a group because they know that this is where the crazy ideas come up. This is where the message of Denver Snuffer gets evangelized as well as the uncorrelated version of plural marriage. Stick to the manual and stay in your small family groups, preferably with your children so that you are less likely to bring up the problems with Book of Abraham translation issues or Book of Mormon horses and chariots. Non-family groups is where the gospel topic essays get publicly mentioned.

On the rare occasions that I teach or talk in church, I try to insert some Christopher Hitchens quote because it's amusing. He has some surprisingly helpful quotes, even for a believing audience.
Christopher Hitchens wrote:To be the father of growing daughters is to understand something of what Yeats evokes with his imperishable phrase ‘terrible beauty.’ Nothing can make one so happily exhilarated or so frightened: it’s a solid lesson in the limitations of self to realize that your heart is running around inside someone else’s body.

“You should be nicer to him,” a schoolmate had once said to me of some awfully ill-favored boy. “He has no friends.” This, I realized with a pang of pity that I can still remember, was only true as long as everybody agreed to it.

Religion is part of the human make-up. It's also part of our cultural and intellectual history. Religion was our first attempt at literature, the texts, our first attempt at cosmology, making sense of where we are in the universe, our first attempt at health care, believing in faith healing, our first attempt at philosophy.
I wonder how things will change in the church with the next in line... and the next...

I’ve listened to several debates with Chris (& Sam Harris). Although I believe in God (definition still pending), one argument they win is how religion taken to extreme can be
harmful. I also like certain points Chris has made:
  • “There is a utilitarian case for free expression. It recognizes that the freedom to speak must also be insisted on for the person who thinks differently, because it is pointless to support only free speech for people who agree with you. It is not only unprincipled to want that, but also self-defeating. For your own sake, you need to know how other people think.”

    “The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.”

    “what annoys me most is a lazy argument.”
He had a lot of good points but one I strongly disagreed. In a debate (I think the one below), Christopher Hitches was asked what Atheism has to offer and he replied, “It offers the chance of living without illusion.”
What an illusion! :) Given how we cannot help but think in subjective - illusional - ways, it is worse to deny it rather than seek subjective interpretations that work for us rather than against us.

Too bad I won’t be able to debate Chris until I join him in the Atheist mansion (of the many mansions). ;)

https://youtu.be/2kZRAOXEFPI

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