Apocalypticists - Stop the Madness

[RubinHighlander]

As some of you may know, I'm very anit-apocalyptic, meaning I really hate the whole end-of-the-world-judgement-day narrative that the Mormon church uses to strike fear into the heart of TBMs to try and keep them in line. Every time they would bring up that lesson in HP or EQ I would cringe or roll my eyes...at least in my latter years of attendance. There was a time I bought into it and dove into the book of Revelation to try and figure it out; man I hate that me!

Without the TBM goggles, it's been so refreshing to see the light, to see the actual data, to see the madness of the TBM world view. Hell, even the COB has backed off Armageddon in recent years, but the general TBM masses continue to believe they are involved in something great, something dramatic where in they will be triumphant heroes and the rest of the world will suck it.

I like how Bart Erhman puts the biblical apocalyptic scriptures into perspective and context that most Christians and TBMs never consider:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE2oaGa2fJU

Joe Smith tried to one up the Bible with the big Hollywood disaster movie type narrative in the BOM, to which there is zero geologic evidence in North or South America.

I'm not saying that our prosperity is not at risk for large scale disruption or disaster, that crap happens all the time and we are not immune. But I am giving the one finger mnemonic to the four horseman of the Apocalypse and anyone in any faith that tries to tell me it's doomsday, judgement day and a rapture. Judge ye for yourselves, not based on ancient or modern opinion, but based on raw data:

https://ourworldindata.org/

Amen

[Corsair]

I have a family member who used to proclaim that one of the markers for the Second Coming was the prophecy that the writings of the Lost Ten Tribes would come forth before Jesus returned. This prophecy was made in October conference of 1916 by James E. Talmage, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve.

“The ten tribes shall come; they are not lost unto the Lord; they shall be brought forth as hath been predicted; and I say unto you there are those now living—aye, some here present—who shall live to read the records of the Lost Tribes of Israel, which shall be made one with the record of the Jews, or the Holy Bible, and the record of the Nephites, or the Book of Mormon, even as the Lord hath predicted” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1916, p. 76; emphasis added).

I showed this to said family member around 2001 and he noted that there are at least two people still alive who were at that conference: Gordon Hinckley and Eldred G. Smith (patriarch emeritus). These two guys have since joined the choir eternal and Brother Smith was 106 when he passed in 2013.

This is not, however, a rhetorical setback that will slow down LDS defenders. More recently I pointed this out to my apocalyptic family member and he moved the goal posts in the most cliched, apologetically lame manner. He told me, "Perhaps he was speaking as a man." This clearly ended the conversation in my favor and he changed the subject with as little penitence as possible.

[RubinHighlander]

"Perhaps he was speaking as a man."

That's just precious! Thanks for sharing that story, gave me a good laugh. I can't believe he would purger himself with a statement like that.

[Emower]

[quote="Corsair"] "Perhaps he was speaking as a man." This clearly ended the conversation in my favor and he changed the subject with as little penitence as possible.[/[/list][/list]quote]

This answer is perhaps one of the most frustrating ways of rationalizing clear BS that Mormons use. "Oh, he gets a pass because that must have been just him speaking without divine approval." I used to push back on people calling this church a cult, but now that I can use rational thought and critical thinking I see just how cultish it is.

[wtfluff]

This is not, however, a rhetorical setback that will slow down LDS defenders. More recently I pointed this out to my apocalyptic family member and he moved the goal posts in the most cliched, apologetically lame manner. He told me, "Perhaps he was speaking as a man." This clearly ended the conversation in my favor and he changed the subject with as little penitence as possible.

Aw come on, this is an easy one:

[Apologist Hat On]
Obviously, one of the Three Nephites, or John the Revelator was in the crowd!

Whew! Shelf Repair Complete!

(Um, yes, I used this when I was still trying to believe...)

[LSOF]

"Perhaps he was speaking as a man."

That's just precious! Thanks for sharing that story, gave me a good laugh. I can't believe he would purger himself with a statement like that.

He was speaking as a man ... in General Conference??? Does this mean he led the people astray? Does this mean that we can't trust any prophet?

[Of course it does.]

[RubinHighlander]

He was speaking as a man ... in General Conference??? Does this mean he led the people astray? Does this mean that we can't trust any prophet?

Ah, very good segue into another beloved topic on the NOM.

[mooseman]

"Thats different--my Gods ARE gods. Your gods are false."

[Corsair]

In a strongly related note, has anyone heard any local leaders or general authorities use the term, "Hastening the Work" recently? It was rolled out as the next big phase of time before Jesus returns. This was really big when the mission age limit was lowered and it showed up as a common theme with a couple of new temples including the one near my house. Does this phrase get non-ironically used by anyone these days?

As a child in the 1970s we were given Spencer Kimball's favorite phrase, "Lengthen Your Stride" and it was all the rage when applied to getting a Year Supply in preparation for apocalyptic end times. If I used this phrase in church today it would be greeted with bewilderment by teenagers and an ironic meme for people over 50.

[Linked]

In a strongly related note, has anyone heard any local leaders or general authorities use the term, "Hastening the Work" recently? It was rolled out as the next big phase of time before Jesus returns. This was really big when the mission age limit was lowered and it showed up as a common theme with a couple of new temples including the one near my house. Does this phrase get non-ironically used by anyone these days?

As a child in the 1970s we were given Spencer Kimball's favorite phrase, "Lengthen Your Stride" and it was all the rage when applied to getting a Year Supply in preparation for apocalyptic end times. If I used this phrase in church today it would be greeted with bewilderment by teenagers and an ironic meme for people over 50.

Yes, my stake president uses "Hastening the Work" with the "rescue" messages. My frustration with these messages helped my shelf sag and break. We've been needing to "Hasten the Work" for almost 200 years, that's pretty steady state if you ask me. And don't tell me I need to be rescued, or more annoying, don't tell me to go tell my content neighbors that they need to be rescued.

My parents were low-level preppers when I was growing up. We had our food storage system, and 72 hour kits, and tents to survive through the apocalypse. We owned guns and my dad made it clear that these guns were not just for hunting, they were for killing people after society ended and they came to steal our food. This didn't impact my childhood much, as the impending doom never materialized and I focused on school, sports, and friends. Later as I started my own family I had to decide how to deal with the possibility of the coming apocalypse and followed in my parents footsteps, though not so fanatically. Now I worry that the apocalypse is likely to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, so maybe the 250 gallon drum of water will still come in handy...

The church still supports the apocalypse narrative, in the April 2004 General Conference Dallin Oaks gave a talk called Preparation for the Second Coming where he highlights statistics that show natural disaster frequency increasing. Nothing on how things are improving though.

These signs of the Second Coming are all around us and seem to be increasing in frequency and intensity. For example, the list of major earthquakes in The World Almanac and Book of Facts, 2004 shows twice as many earthquakes in the decades of the 1980s and 1990s as in the two preceding decades (pp. 189–90). It also shows further sharp increases in the first several years of this century. The list of notable floods and tidal waves and the list of hurricanes, typhoons, and blizzards worldwide show similar increases in recent years (pp. 188–89). Increases by comparison with 50 years ago can be dismissed as changes in reporting criteria, but the accelerating pattern of natural disasters in the last few decades is ominous.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... g?lang=eng

[nibbler]

The church still supports the apocalypse narrative...

Yes. During the YSA worldwide devotional this month Elder Nelson said:

A True Millennial is a man or woman whom God trusted enough to send to earth during the most compelling dispensation in the history of this world. A True Millennial is a man or woman who lives now to help prepare the people of this world for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and His millennial reign. Make no mistake about it—you were born to be a True Millennial.

...

You are living in the “eleventh hour.” The Lord has declared that this is the last time that He will call laborers into His vineyard to gather the elect from the four quarters of the earth. And you were sent to participate in this gathering. Again and again I have seen firsthand the powerful influence of True Millennials as they bring others to a knowledge of the truth. This is part of your identity and your purpose as the seed of Abraham!

It's still a teaching that comes up from time to time but I don't know that we emphasize it like we used to.

In a strongly related note, has anyone heard any local leaders or general authorities use the term, "Hastening the Work" recently?

No, thank Xenu. But my area took things to an extreme. You couldn't go more than 15 minutes at church without hearing someone say "hasten the work" and that went on for at least 9 months before it started tapering off. It was like a Hootie and the Blowfish song. Okay at first but overplayed so much that you start to get stabby when you hear it again.

HtW was the ultimate "Jesus is coming, look busy."

It was just another corporate slogan that ran its course. There for a while I was worried that "religious freedom" would catch on. I'm sure the ad wizards are scrambling to come up with another catchy motivational phrase that will be used to whip more volunteer work out of beleaguered saints.

Sorry for that rant. HtW really got to me. Like that commercial with the annoying music that they play twice every commercial break while your team is losing big to their rivals level of getting to me.

To end on a positive note:
Let's have a real good time, let's have a real good time.
Let's have a real good time, let's have a real good time.
Let's have a real good time, let's have a real good time.
Let's have a real good time, let's have a real good time.
Let's have a real good time, let's have a real good time.
Let's have a real good time, let's have a real good time.
a la veinte tres

[RubinHighlander]

Dallin Oaks wrote:
These signs of the Second Coming are all around us and seem to be increasing in frequency and intensity. For example, the list of major earthquakes in The World Almanac and Book of Facts, 2004 shows twice as many earthquakes in the decades of the 1980s and 1990s as in the two preceding decades (pp. 189–90). It also shows further sharp increases in the first several years of this century. The list of notable floods and tidal waves and the list of hurricanes, typhoons, and blizzards worldwide show similar increases in recent years (pp. 188–89). Increases by comparison with 50 years ago can be dismissed as changes in reporting criteria, but the accelerating pattern of natural disasters in the last few decades is ominous.

Drama, drama, drama Mr. Oaks!

Let's break this one down shall we?

Earthquakes on the rise: https://www2.usgs.gov/faq/categories/9830/3355%20
Nope! Just business as usual on a planet with active tectonic plates.

Floods, Tidal Waves, Hurricanes, Typhoons and Blizzards? Okay, so this one has more to do with climate change and nothing to do with the Second Coming. I would also back off the panic here. The fact that these are increasing can also be offset by some things that are decreasing. The planet has warmed before in it's past and it has had many ice ages. Don't get me wrong, I don't like global warming and I would love to get off fossil fuel; I have faith that will happen but not before some more human impact. Some areas will dry out and others will become warmer and more wet. Hell, we could be growing oranges here in Utah someday. The impact on humans is inevitable because there are more of us living on coast lines and hill sides and other potentially dangerous areas than ever before. It's been a dozen years since Katrina and the prediction was the number of category 5's would continue to increase...has not happened. In fact the US is experiencing a hurricane drought the past decade.
http://www.livescience.com/50704-hurricane-drought.html
There's some evidence global warming could mellow out things like hurricanes and tornadoes.

...the accelerating pattern of natural disasters in the last few decades is ominous.

Statement like that by fear mongering old men who do not know what they are talking about...really pisses me off! Perhaps Oaks should use the seer stone to write his talks in the future and stop leading people astray.

[Linked]

Yes. During the YSA worldwide devotional this month Elder Nelson said:

A True Millennial is a man or woman whom God trusted enough to send to earth during the most compelling dispensation in the history of this world. A True Millennial is a man or woman who lives now to help prepare the people of this world for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ and His millennial reign. Make no mistake about it—you were born to be a True Millennial.

...

You are living in the “eleventh hour.” The Lord has declared that this is the last time that He will call laborers into His vineyard to gather the elect from the four quarters of the earth. And you were sent to participate in this gathering. Again and again I have seen firsthand the powerful influence of True Millennials as they bring others to a knowledge of the truth. This is part of your identity and your purpose as the seed of Abraham!

It's still a teaching that comes up from time to time but I don't know that we emphasize it like we used to.

Triggered. I hate it when a group takes a well understood word, then tells us that the common understanding is wrong and that THEY are the ones who know what it really means. Millennials are leaving the church in droves, but True Millennials are standing firm in their faith. Stupid. And confusing. No True Scotsman my eye. Maybe the True in True Millennial has the same meaning as True in True Church, not actually saying it is true, but that it is what the COB wants it to be.

You are right, the apocalyptic narrative is dialed back right now because it didn't test well with their target market.

[Linked]

In a strongly related note, has anyone heard any local leaders or general authorities use the term, "Hastening the Work" recently?

"Hasten the Work" was printed in large font on our sacrament meeting program yesterday. Alive and well in my stake.

[Corsair]

"Hasten the Work" was printed in large font on our sacrament meeting program yesterday. Alive and well in my stake.

I do notice that while "Hasten" is verb associated with time, no time frame is ever hinted. Apocalypticists want all benefits of urgency as if the Second Coming was next week, while demanding all benefits of patience as if it's not for another century.

[document]

Floods, Tidal Waves, Hurricanes, Typhoons and Blizzards? Okay, so this one has more to do with climate change and nothing to do with the Second Coming. I would also back off the panic here.

I'm honestly surprised that more LDS people are not using climate change to proclaim the second coming is closer and right around the corner. I've known many people to use earthquakes and volcanic eruptions to proclaim that Jesus was coming. Yet, for some reason, almost every single one I know who is apocalyptic denies climate change. Even if it were bunk science, I figured they would cling to it more than any other group.

[Spicy McHaggis]

This is a very interesting article from New Yorker Magazine. Basically a lot of billionaires believe in a sort of end times, not based on religion but based on an economic system failure and resulting chaos. I must say, I think that this is highly likely as the continuous widening wealth gap isn't sustainable and something is going to have to change it.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/ ... super-rich

As for Armageddon as described by the church, it just simply isn't happening. The two biggest so-called prophecies about Jesus coming back is that it was going to be imminent 2,000 years ago and humanity was going to degrade to unseen levels of depravity. Even with recent bad news for the world, the human condition has never been better. I would think the NT writers, when talking about society's collapse, had just witnessed the abuses of Nero & Caligula and thought the 2nd coming was imminent.

JS did paint the church into this corner and there's no getting out. The rhetoric about the 2nd coming has already quieted down a great deal from when I was in seminary and YM. At some point they will just stop talking about it the way they stopped talking about polygamy and protective underwear.

Does anyone besides mormons and born-again Christians still take the religious armageddon literally? Doesn't the church paint it as everyone but temple recommend holding mormons are going to be burned? What a gruesome thought. I think those violent end times images TBMs have is one reason they are never offended when the US bombs the shit out of some poor country. I don't recall any TBMs I knew who opposed the Iraq war. My TBM father in law thought the US should have dropped nukes. As much as they preach peace, they don't really believe it thanks to the violence they expect at the 2nd coming.

[RubinHighlander]

Floods, Tidal Waves, Hurricanes, Typhoons and Blizzards? Okay, so this one has more to do with climate change and nothing to do with the Second Coming. I would also back off the panic here.

I'm honestly surprised that more LDS people are not using climate change to proclaim the second coming is closer and right around the corner. I've known many people to use earthquakes and volcanic eruptions to proclaim that Jesus was coming. Yet, for some reason, almost every single one I know who is apocalyptic denies climate change. Even if it were bunk science, I figured they would cling to it more than any other group.

This is a very interesting quandary for the majority of TBMs who are conservatives. They won't buy into climate change from the political side but they do tend to use it for their doomsday narrative when it's convenient. Perhaps rising sea levels are not exciting enough? Maybe it's because they don't want to jump on the bandwagon to reduce carbon emissions and do things to stop global warming because that would go against the narrative and it's their job to usher in the millennium? Also, they tend to have big families and big SUVs and vans, so reducing the carbon footprint is not conducive to raising a big family?