Laws of Physics

[dandycustard]

Just realized NOM had been moved here, so thought I would join up for an occasional post or two.

So I caught something the other day I thought would make for an interesting discussion. We're always taught God is the master scientist who lives within the laws of physics, yes? I'd like to offer up this description for your thoughts (emphasis added by me):

"I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me."

As some may be aware, one of the only constants we know of in physics is the speed of light. No if I am not mistaken, God would have been operating outside the laws of physics by significantly slowing down the speed of light in this case, or there is a yet undiscovered method for slowing down light.

To me it speaks to the experience, that either it never happened or happened in some sort of dream/vision state and not the real world as evidenced by something impossible in the real world happening (light slowing down). Anyone care to conjecture?

[Korihor]

TBM hat on-
Another easy one. The source of light (aka Jesus and Elohim) descended slowly. But since they are all illuminating, it looks like a "pillar of light" below them.
Kinda like the giant ball drop on new years eve at Times Square.

[Korihor]

Hi Dandy/Pedro

Welcome back!

[Corsair]

Mormons love to talk about a god that lives inside the universe knowing and using all laws of physics. This actually stands in contrast to a common view of God in the rest of the Christian world who lives outside of space and time and thus could act as the prime mover initiating the universe. This kind of god has a different type of logic proving His existence and assertions about how He could still be a loving personal god. Mormons love the God of the Gaps who somehow is within the universe but not bound by entropy or problems of where the big band or cosmology would hamper such a being. I doubt this divide will ever be bridged.

[lostintime]

This idea that God follows the laws of physics has always bothered me. If god followed natural laws, we wouldn't need religion, we would study him from a scientific perspective. Placing god outside of natural laws is the only hope for any religion. It blows my mind that the church hasn't recognized this and corrected silly statements by prophets and apostles from the past.

[Spicy McHaggis]

If God followed the laws of physics, how would he travel from Kolob to earth in what we can only assume is instantaneously? I doubt God is going to be willing to travel those great distances at only the speed of light. Even with the one day on Kolob = 1,000 years on earth time warp, it would still take him tens or hundreds of thousands of Kolob days to travel back and forth. Wouldn't it?

[fh451]

If God followed the laws of physics, how would he travel from Kolob to earth in what we can only assume is instantaneously? I doubt God is going to be willing to travel those great distances at only the speed of light. Even with the one day on Kolob = 1,000 years on earth time warp, it would still take him tens or hundreds of thousands of Kolob days to travel back and forth. Wouldn't it?

That's why he only shows up every 1000 years or so to check up on how things are going and get out a can of whoop-ass if necessary. This is also why prayers don't seem to work - by the time the prayer gets there and he answers, we're long dead!

fh451

[LSOF]

If God followed the laws of physics, how would he travel from Kolob to earth in what we can only assume is instantaneously? I doubt God is going to be willing to travel those great distances at only the speed of light. Even with the one day on Kolob = 1,000 years on earth time warp, it would still take him tens or hundreds of thousands of Kolob days to travel back and forth. Wouldn't it?

That's what God needs with a starship!

[didyoumythme]

There are too many inconsistencies between the first vision accounts, accounts of others, and the circumstances to rely on the details. His accounts are very similar to accounts of others in his time so I believe he fabricated the story, or perhaps, exaggerated a more common spiritual experience for effect.

I first need to see evidence that God exists before deciding anything about his characteristics, purposes, powers, limitations, etc.

[MalcolmVillager]

There are too many inconsistencies between the first vision accounts, accounts of others, and the circumstances to rely on the details. His accounts are very similar to accounts of others in his time so I believe he fabricated the story, or perhaps, exaggerated a more common spiritual experience for effect.

I first need to see evidence that God exists before deciding anything about his characteristics, purposes, powers, limitations, etc.

TBM me, "so you are demanding a sign?!"

NOM me, "yeah, show me any sign or even a hint that has no other plausible explanation."

I have not seen any convincing evidence outside of what I have felt, which seems to have no other likely source than inside of myself. Humans can believe, feel, and think some crazy stuff.

Thoughts, beliefs, and feelings are not evidence of truth!

[ulmite]

Imagine a light-saber a few miles long, gradually descending until it falls upon Joseph, and of course fries him.

[Emower]

The classic answer that deflects doubt and allows you to put your head in the sand:

"We know that God follows natural laws and works according to science because he invented science. So when we gain a perfect understanding (after we are dead conveniently) we will understand the laws that must be at work that we don't know right now."

[nibbler]

"We know that God follows natural laws and works according to science because he invented science. So when we gain a perfect understanding (after we are dead conveniently) we will understand the laws that must be at work that we don't know right now."

I've heard this many times. What is the official orthodox position on the omnipotence of god according to Mormonism? Is god obligated to obey natural law? Are natural laws "higher" than god?

[fh451]

I've heard this many times. What is the official orthodox position on the omnipotence of god according to Mormonism? Is god obligated to obey natural law? Are natural laws "higher" than god?

Theologically, I've heard the Mormon God described as the "small-g" god; e.g., very powerful (master physicist, etc) but still subject to the laws of the universe. This is in contrast to other Christians who see God as a force outside of nature and therefore not subject to it. Having God subject to nature solves some theological problems while creating others. Mormons also have to contend with the eternal regression of Gods before our current God, since "God was once a man," etc. IIRC, Bruce R McConkie resolved this conundrum by saying something like the fact that God was once a man is irrelevant to our experience because he has advanced to the point where he is God, and as far a we're concerned he is all powerful in our sphere of existence and the only God we have interaction with. If He is limited in some over-arching sphere isn't relevant in any way that matters (kind of a variation of the "It's not pertinent to our salvation" trope). IMO Mormons try to play both sides of that fence in that since we can't tell if he's all powerful or not, he might as well be. So really, that makes him no different than how we would see some super-technically-advanced space alien.

fh451

[Newme]

"I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me."

I always read that as a poetic way of expressing the 1st vision - not literally, but whatever - let's analyze away.

God is considered to be independent of our sun and our "laws" of light.
God is considered eternal. Eternal=beyond time, beyond the time it takes for light to travel.

This idea that God follows the laws of physics has always bothered me. If god followed natural laws, we wouldn't need religion, we would study him from a scientific perspective. Placing god outside of natural laws is the only hope for any religion. It blows my mind that the church hasn't recognized this and corrected silly statements by prophets and apostles from the past.

Yes, I see your point, but then the church would only be supernaturally true - not true in every sense of the word. They need it to be 100% true from every possible angle, so they can feel secure. But too often, they go against the priority of truth (which supposedly God is based on) when presented with inconvenient facts. “Faith indeed tells what the senses do not tell, but not the contrary of what they see. It is above them and not contrary to them.”-Pascal

Personally, I've come to redefine God as not just supernatural - but also intelligent design which is in all life and which actually testifies of evolution, since evolution is the ability to adapt to change (intelligence). And God to me is also spiritual experience and consciousness. Consciousness is coming to be considered more fundamental aspect in all of natural life than previously thought... so I AM THAT I AM is not so far off. One aspect I still love about Mormonism is the idea that "truth is truth, no matter where it's found."

[Emower]

"We know that God follows natural laws and works according to science because he invented science. So when we gain a perfect understanding (after we are dead conveniently) we will understand the laws that must be at work that we don't know right now."

I've heard this many times. What is the official orthodox position on the omnipotence of god according to Mormonism? Is god obligated to obey natural law? Are natural laws "higher" than god?

I don't think there is an official position on natural laws and God. If memory serves talmage wrote several things about natural laws, science , and God in Jesus the Christ. That book is fairly official because he was supposedly given a room in the temple to write it. That makes it dang near scripture. Here is just one of the quotes:

“Miracles cannot be in contravention of natural law, but are wrought through the operation of laws not universally or commonly recognized. In the contemplation of the miracles wrought by Christ, we must of necessity recognize the operation of a power transcending our present human understanding. In this field, science has not yet advanced far enough to analyze and explain. To deny the actuality of miracles on the ground that, because we cannot comprehend the means, the reported results are fictitious, is to arrogate to the human mind the attribute of omniscience, by implying that what man cannot comprehend cannot be, and that therefore he is able to comprehend all that is. To comprehend the works of Christ, one must know Him as the Son of God; to the man who has not yet learned to know, to the honest soul who would inquire after the Lord, the invitation is ready; let him ‘Come and see.’” James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, pg. 148-49.

My understanding was always that natural laws were not any 'higher' or 'lower' but that God worked in concert with them. This does bring up some really weird questions though about the nature of God, his purpose, is there a continuum of other gods?, etc...
But cmon, none of this is pertinent so go and do your home teaching.