Polygamy and Jacob 2

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MerrieMiss
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Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:03 pm

Ugghh. I’ve been wanting to back off from reading and studying about mormonism but I keep getting dragged back in. As I wrote on another thread, polygamy has never really been one of my issues, but I’ve been thinking about it this week and here’s one of my thoughts regarding Jacob 2. I’m somewhat reluctant to post since I figure I’m preaching to the choir here and everyone already knows this stuff, but I’d really like to bounce some ideas around.

Jacob 2 has been cited as being both anti- and pro- polygamy: anti, because the text states that it is wrong, and pro because polygamy is not wrong when approved by God if he needs more seed.

I have two difficulties with this.

First, if God needs more “seed” (which I assume means more people, but only in the form of infants since that’s what polygamy produces -god needs babies, not converts), why is polygamy the means by which he does this? Why can’t god increase fertility? Cure infertility? Cause more twins be born, decrease mother and infant mortality? Increase good physical hygiene practices? Eradicate diseases? Why is the one solution to increasing the birth population to let a limited number of males impregnate the entire female population? And I’m being somewhat clinical in this definition of polygamy because Jacob 2:30 reads that the only purpose the lord has to approve of polygamy is “to raise up seed” – not to create sealings, care for widows, create social cohesion or whatever else. It’s to make babies. Why can’t god come up with another method of doing this?

Secondly, Jacob 2 explicitly states that there is sorrow and mourning of women on account of their husband’s abominations. Apparently, polygamy and concubinage makes women and children unhappy, so it is the solution to god’s population problem. If by following commandments we are happy and have joy, if we know what kind of tree it is from the fruits it bears, then what kind of fruits are polygamy even when it is sanctioned by god?

In all of my reading of church history, in my many readings of the Old Testament, I cannot think of one polygamous union that was happy and produced good results. I read a lot of divisions, anger, family disputes, jealousy, hurt feelings, the division of the Abrahamic religion into jew/arab, etc. I suppose this is where the victim blaming comes in – if you’re not happy with the arrangement it’s your fault for not trying and not being good enough. Okay, but why has it created such terrible results? Abraham, David, Jacob (OT) – all frightful results from having multiple wives.

Plural marriage seems an absurd way to increase population and it doesn’t seem to bring much happiness and joy – in fact, it seems to have done a lot of damage, not just to the people involved, but to the religious movements themselves. Why is this a good explanation of why god would approve of such a practice?

As a note, I’m aware that polygamy doesn’t really increase the population, however in the church’s essay on polygamy in Utah, there is the following footnote 6:
Studies have shown that monogamous women bore more children per wife than did polygamous wives except the first. Fertility at the societal level, however, was enhanced because of the near universality of marriage among women and the abundant opportunities for remarriage among previously married women of childbearing age.
https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marri ... g&old=true

I’m trying to look at this using church sources. But here's another question from the footnote, what does this mean?
Studies have shown that monogamous women bore more children per wife than did polygamous wives except the first.
Except the first what? Am I missing something?

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LSOF
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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by LSOF » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:32 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:03 pm

I’m trying to look at this using church sources. But here's another question from the footnote, what does this mean?
Studies have shown that monogamous women bore more children per wife than did polygamous wives except the first.
Except the first what? Am I missing something?
The first wife of a harem bore more children than a monogamous wife, who herself bore more children than the other wives of the harem.
"I appreciate your flesh needs to martyr me." Parture

"There is no contradiction between faith and science --- true science." Dr Zaius

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Spicy McHaggis
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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by Spicy McHaggis » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:01 am

If the BoM says polygamy's purpose is to raise up more "seed" why do apologists try to claim JS didn't have sex with his wives?

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General Nuisance
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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by General Nuisance » Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:00 am

During the polygamy era, Utah had the highest divorce rate in the country. It was discussed as a huge problem at the highest church levels.

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moksha
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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by moksha » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:37 am

During the 19th and early part of the 20th Century, Mormons argued that polygamy was an adjunct to eugenics in that it produced sturdy superior children who bore the spirits of favored Heavenly children. The end goal may very well have been to create a species known as Homo Polygensis (Polygamy Man). The primary species characteristic would have been a willingness to tithe on gross income and an overwhelming desire to obey General Authorities.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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deacon blues
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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by deacon blues » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:36 am

MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:03 pm


Secondly, Jacob 2 explicitly states that there is sorrow and mourning of women on account of their husband’s abominations. Apparently, polygamy and concubinage makes women and children unhappy, so it is the solution to god’s population problem. If by following commandments we are happy and have joy, if we know what kind of tree it is from the fruits it bears, then what kind of fruits are polygamy even when it is sanctioned by god?
Ah,this is brilliant. I never thought of this. (Maybe because I'm a guy) This is why studying the BOM over and over brings continued insights and blessings. :roll:
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by MerrieMiss » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:59 am

Spicy McHaggis wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:01 am
If the BoM says polygamy's purpose is to raise up more "seed" why do apologists try to claim JS didn't have sex with his wives?
That is a very good point.
moksha wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:37 am
During the 19th and early part of the 20th Century, Mormons argued that polygamy was an adjunct to eugenics in that it produced sturdy superior children who bore the spirits of favored Heavenly children. The end goal may very well have been to create a species known as Homo Polygensis (Polygamy Man). The primary species characteristic would have been a willingness to tithe on gross income and an overwhelming desire to obey General Authorities.
About five years ago I was researching nineteenth century travel diaries and ran across someone's European travelogue in The Millennial Star of all places. I read through it and found this article about how genetically superior polygamist children are. It was really eye opening. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate it again.

20/20hind
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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by 20/20hind » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:18 pm

Section 132 is interesting to apply to this because polygamy or celestial marriage was (is) the new and everlasting covenant. Its the only way a mormon could get into super duper vip heaven.

They had to spin 132 into meaning non polygamous marriages.

If you where a mormon in the 1840-1890s and lived the new and everlasting covenant you would understand it to be polygamy 100%.

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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:36 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:59 am
Spicy McHaggis wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:01 am
If the BoM says polygamy's purpose is to raise up more "seed" why do apologists try to claim JS didn't have sex with his wives?
That is a very good point.
moksha wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:37 am
During the 19th and early part of the 20th Century, Mormons argued that polygamy was an adjunct to eugenics in that it produced sturdy superior children who bore the spirits of favored Heavenly children. The end goal may very well have been to create a species known as Homo Polygensis (Polygamy Man). The primary species characteristic would have been a willingness to tithe on gross income and an overwhelming desire to obey General Authorities.
About five years ago I was researching nineteenth century travel diaries and ran across someone's European travelogue in The Millennial Star of all places. I read through it and found this article about how genetically superior polygamist children are. It was really eye opening. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate it again.
George Q Cannon wrote some similar themed defenses of Polygamy (eugenics) in his mormon newspaper in California.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2006/08/02/eugenics/

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Palerider
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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by Palerider » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:25 pm

Interesting thing about Biblical polygamy is that (if read carefully) there is never a "commandment" by God for men to take multiple wives.
Sarah in a lack of faith actually foisted Hagar upon Abraham (as a concubine not a wife). Then Jacob is deceived into marrying Leah before he can marry his true love, Rachel.
The church tries to make it look like polygamy was preferred by God as a state of matrimony, when in reality it was more of a cultural hold over from ancient times.
Joseph Smith's lament that he was "commanded" to practice polygamy as were the Biblical patriarchs, by an angel with a flaming sword, is just a pitiful and transparent excuse to have more than one woman.

What Jacob 2:30 shows however is that Joseph Smith was thinking about polygamy or having multiple women quite early in his evolving religious views. In reality he was attempting to lay the doctrinal foundation for a future society where polygamy would be totally acceptable.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

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moksha
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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by moksha » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:01 pm

moksha wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:37 am
The end goal may very well have been to create a species known as Homo Polygensis (Polygamy Man). The primary species characteristic would have been a willingness to tithe on gross income and an overwhelming desire to obey General Authorities.
What about voting Republican and using Amway products?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Corsair
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Re: Polygamy and Jacob 2

Post by Corsair » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:09 am

Spicy McHaggis wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:01 am
If the BoM says polygamy's purpose is to raise up more "seed" why do apologists try to claim JS didn't have sex with his wives?
The rules for polygamy are laid out pretty clearly in D&C 132:61-65. But Gospel Doctrine classes rarely go over these verses since they are rather disturbing.
  • Verse 61: Marry virgins that give their consent and are espoused to no other man
  • Verse 62: Marry ten virgins is A-OK
  • Verse 63: If one of your plural wives "shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed"
  • Verse 64: Plural wives must learn and believe in polygamy or she shall be destroyed
  • Verse 65: If your wife doesn't like this law, the men are allowed to have more wives anyway and "he is exempt from the law of Sarah"
Try going over the details of these rules in Relief Society and watch the cognitive dissonance cause weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

Adding insult to injury, Joseph Smith broke all these rules. He didn't always marry virgins, he married other men's wives, he had upwards of 40, he did not get Emma's permission or consent on most of them, and he clearly did not raise up seed. My favorite sins are drinking coffee and not paying tithing which sounds positively pedestrian compared with Joseph's marital activities.

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