40 stakes in Holland

[Meilingkie]

Many many moons ago TSM prophesied the day would come that the back then 3 stakes in Holland would Grow to be 40 stakes.

In the last 2 years the Church closed 7 wards.
That's almost a stake worth of wards.
Our stake of 7 wards has 2 wards which are in imminent danger of being closed.

Growth in Europe, don't make me laugh.....

[Meilingkie]

We have fewer units now than in 1962, go figure........

[Corsair]

That is a sobering statistic. I'm still living in an organically growing and functionally baptizing area in Arizona so this is quite far removed from me. Does stake leadership discuss this problem in high council meetings? Is there a growing worry as the encourage members to keep doing their job? This is starting to sound like a company that will have some layoffs soon.

[Palerider]

Curious as to how many stakes Holland currently has?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Wow! If Europe is any indicator of future US church growth, the future will be quite interesting.

[Silver Girl]

Curious as to how many stakes Holland currently has?

+1000 - this would be interesting to know!

[2bizE]

Meilingkie,
Why are Europeans in general more secular in nature than in other continents where religion is much more dominant? I'm sure there are many reasons, but I'm interested in your opinion.

[wtfluff]

Curious as to how many stakes Holland currently has?

+1000 - this would be interesting to know!

Google says: 3 !!!

[Meilingkie]

3.5 stakes
We have 4 wards assigned to a stake in Belgium

Why secular?
Enlightenment is a European phenomenon, Same with the many religious wars. The French revolution plays a part in many countries as well. A strict division between Church and stare, France being the supreme example.

[Gatorbait]

It is sobering to see statistics like these, but not surprising. No growth means what? The people are too wicked? Not humble? Won't listen to God's words?

Fortyfive years ago, when someone went to Europe on a mission, the hope of having the opportunity to baptize a family was rare. Most had little success. Many of us know of returned missionaries from those times. Dismal. The only hope was to baptize a serviceman or family. Or an immigrant.

Since that time, fewer and fewer missionaries are called to Europe. Why? Wouldn't there be some growth from convert baptism?

What does the church say, or are they silent on this subject?

Is it just the LDS or all churches?

What is the opinion of the group on this matter?

[Corsair]

As Noam Chomsky stated:

“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum....”

The challenges of church growth are only discussed in several limited ways. In the occasions where bad news does get broadcast to a wider audience, the church has some safe built in narratives about "Satan abroad in the land", and certainly "the very elect will be deceived". "Religious freedom" is the latest meme for the challenges of belief.

Honest discussion of growth clearly occurs in some strictly limited groups in church leadership. We know that the LDS church has an effective statistical office that compiles the quarterly reports of ward clerks. Reports of the non-growth in Holland and many other stakes must worry them, but this is not generally broadcast.

The wider church at the local level only discuss growth of the church in a very narrow sense. If converts are coming into area then it is assumed that this is just the local evidence of the general growth of the church. If converts are few and far between (which is the vast majority of LDS congregations), then that ward and stake assumes that other areas are obviously growing faster and making up for their anemic growth. Humans are fairly innumerate. When the annual statistical report is presented in April general conference, 99% of the audience simply hears the raw growth numbers and that's good enough for them.

[wtfluff]

It is sobering to see statistics like these, but not surprising. No growth means what? The people are too wicked? Not humble? Won't listen to God's words?

The church is selling a crappy product, and they are dishonest about it from the start. In the "information age" it's pretty easy for the consumer to find out about the crappiness of the product and the dishonesty of the sales-people before "purchasing".

What does the church say, or are they silent on this subject?

The world is growing ever more wicked, blah blah blah, persecution complex, blah blah blah, very elect deceived (thanks Corsair), blah blah blah. (ALL of which flies in the face of the "Stone cut from the mountain rolling forth"...)

Is it just the LDS or all churches?

Polling shows that all "organized religion" is on the decline.

What is the opinion of the group on this matter?

See my opinions above.

[Gatorbait]

I think you nailed it wtfluff.

[Meilingkie]

500 yeards from our church there´s a pentecostal black megachurch
They have 3000 people in the pews every week.
And people come from far and wide.

Same for the Dutch Biblebelt, with megachurches being built every month.
All of the Restored Dutch Reformed Church.

There are enough religious people, but the LDS Church in Holland is not catering to them

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

500 yeards from our church there´s a pentecostal black megachurch
They have 3000 people in the pews every week.
And people come from far and wide.

Same for the Dutch Biblebelt, with megachurches being built every month.
All of the Restored Dutch Reformed Church.

There are enough religious people, but the LDS Church in Holland is not catering to them

I served my mission in the US bible belt and attended a few pentecostal meetings. I often told my companion "we can't compete with that" afterwards. The music has more mass appeal.

[Meilingkie]

Here a clip of typical singing in a Restored Dutch Reformed Church.
It´s Iso-rhythmic, or as we call it "singing on whole notes".
Non-rhythmic. Every syllable exactly the same length, slowly
Nothing pentecostal about it.
Still, a town nearby has 2 megachurches, and both contain 2.5 LDS-Stakes equivalents of members.
A town of 8000, and 3000 attend the Church

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_YnWCIU4J8

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Here a clip of typical singing in a Restored Dutch Reformed Church.
It´s Iso-rhythmic, or as we call it "singing on whole notes".
Non-rhythmic. Every syllable exactly the same length, slowly
Nothing pentecostal about it.
Still, a town nearby has 2 megachurches, and both contain 2.5 LDS-Stakes equivalents of members.
A town of 8000, and 3000 attend the Church

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_YnWCIU4J8

Oh! We can compete with that. I was imagining the electric guitars and drumsets of US Pentecostals.

[Mormorrisey]

Always great to hear the state of things in other areas - the church itself tends to be rather North America-centric, it's nice that NOM tries to buck that trend with you here, Meilingkie. I'm sure, though, that European saints are simply told to lengthen their stride when it comes to missionary work, rather than trying to solve the real problems. Which we're all familiar with, to list them takes more enthusiasm than I've got right now. Apathy. That's what I've got.

[2bizE]

Here a clip of typical singing in a Restored Dutch Reformed Church.
It´s Iso-rhythmic, or as we call it "singing on whole notes".
Non-rhythmic. Every syllable exactly the same length, slowly
Nothing pentecostal about it.
Still, a town nearby has 2 megachurches, and both contain 2.5 LDS-Stakes equivalents of members.
A town of 8000, and 3000 attend the Church

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_YnWCIU4J8

A few observations from the video...
1) all men are singing.
2) a lot of men singing
3) nobody is surfing the internet on their smart phones.
4) people look like they actually want to be there.
5) the men are dressed casual. Do not feel obligated to wear the white shirt and tie costume.

[Rob4Hope]

It is disengeneous for the LDS church to make "prophecies" and then discount them, or blame them on "satan" when they don't come to pass. The church has done a LOT of that with JS and others,..(BY comes to mind and the alphabet and crap he did),...but it keeps going. It becomes so easy to explain things away, and the general membership buys it hook-line-and-STINKER.