Female Angels

[deacon blues]

I want to share a piece from Rational Faiths that touched me. We always hear about male angels: Michael, Gabriel, etc.This piece, by Michele Wiener is about 3 female angels. http://rationalfaiths.com/yom-kippur-post/

[moksha]

Obviously some have conceived of angels as female.

[Enoch Witty]

Obviously some have conceived of angels as female.

Yes, indeed.

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[moksha]

The last set of angel statues have been on the famous British documentary program Dr. Who, so you know they are real.

[Corsair]

But can you shake hands with a female angel (D&C 129)? All we have seen of these women angels is a feminine face and hairstyle. How do we know that this isn't another instance of Renaissance style cross dressing?

[Give It Time]

Thank you for sharing this. It's interesting her initial experience is more along Celtic Pagan lines of a triple goddess: crone/mother/maiden



Here's another image of the triple goddess that more closely fits her description of Sophia.




I don't really have much to add, but I do love this version of The Lady's Prayer by Mark Christian and Janie Young.


Our Mother,
Who art amongst us,
Hallowed is Thy presence.
Our realm is here,
We sense Thee near,
On Earth,
which is our living Heaven.
Teach us this day to bake our bread,
And accept us in our human-ness
As we accept each other,
in spite of our limitations.
Lead us not into domination,
But empower us to freedom.
For ours is this Air,
This Fire,
This Water,
This Earth,
Forever and Ever.
Blessed Be.

[Hagoth]

Female angels? Maybe. Nekkid-shouldered female angels? Absolutely-freakin'-not!

[Give It Time]

Jesus' clothes weren't exactly garment-friendly, either.

[Give It Time]

This is an intentional double post. I've been thinking about this some, today.

I wanted to thank DB for sharing this. I've not made this thread a priority, because I'm mostly over this, but I thought it a wonderfully considerate share and wanted to add some of my thoughts on this.

First of all, look at how the author felt the need to hide her experience with the feminine divine. She named her post "Yom Kippur". She then goes on to describe an intense shared spiritual experience she and her future husband have. She does further study and learns about the feminine divine embodied in Sophia, yet her husband doesn't refer to this woman or any of these women as spiritual beings with any real power or authority as would be manifest in a goddess such as Sophia. He calls them "angels", not goddesses, angels. I don't think he meant to put a stained glass ceiling over these women. I think he was just recognizing that, in our tradition, there is already one there.

Next, she mentions, and I caught, the feminine divine in triple goddess manifestation. I believe this is very important to put out there as an idea. This triple goddess concept completely contradicts the Madonna/whore binary and gives us some views of women that are more complex and complete. If there are any more versed in paganism than I please chime in.

A woman can be as the maiden: young, fresh, lively, carefree, full of laughter and potential. A woman can be like the mother, this is the feminine divine at her most spiritual and most powerful. She is full of life, the grand creatrix. The nurturing mother. The fertile mother. The crone is the wisest aspect of the feminine divine. I've come across writings saying she is the most powerful. Powerful, because of her wisdom and powerful because she is also free of child bearing and rearing. She no longer has to answer to and accommodate the god. However, the crone is also represented as the waning moon and, therefore, not as powerful as the mother. So, take your pick. Nowhere in those archetypes is she presented as a whore. That trope simply isn't present. No porn shoulders, no Eve or Lilith the temptress to ruin men's lives.

These are probably things the author has learned about her shared and unshared experiences. I think there's almost as much to be learned from what she didn't share as the fact that she didn't share.

[moksha]

This is a bit off-topic, but it makes me wonder if the LDS Church will discourage its members from seeing the movie Wonder Woman, due to the portrayal of Wonder Woman being both powerful and a protector of men?

[Give It Time]

Actually, I don't think it's off topic, at all. Our superheroes are also valuable and inspirational archetypes. I don't know if they'd blatantly discourage, I think it would be more of a subtle discouragement. Something like, "you don't want to see that..." and then proceed to point out something that could be considered lame or finding fault with the lead actress.

I had some more thoughts about the hidden Sophia. Sophia means wisdom and some form of recognizing the feminine divine's wisdom is pretty universal. Let's get away from the usual reasons the church hides Heavenly Mother and get into a new one. The church venerates Eve's choice. It even teaches that wisdom is her defining characteristic. Yet, despite this wise choice, Eve and her daughters are forever silenced and placed in a subordinate position. Nevermore will her wisdom spring automatically to mind, but we will have to be reminded in our SS lessons. By silencing and suppressing this source of wisdom, society (not just the church) has brought shame upon itself.

Instead of the wise Sophia/Shekinah/Eve/Athena, we have blond jokes. We have jokes about women drivers. We have women who have brilliant ideas, but have to get a man to introduce that idea, because people won't pay any attention, otherwise. We have girls choosing subjects besides STEM and women facing misogyny in the STEM fields. All because God is portrayed as a male (or Heavenly Mother is hidden). The vast majority of society is taught that man is the superior gender. Considering women equal and not just equal but capable, is a newfangled and ridiculous notion.

So, I think one of the reasons the church doesn't let us know about Heavenly Mother is because it would then become apparent how the church has been doing a disservice to its members this whole time.

[alas]

Another interesting aspect of the Devine feminine is that apparently she was the main God prehistoricly. Many very early "Venus" statues have been found, but no male god statues of the same age. This very early earth mother was depicted as a pregnant body. The theory I have heard is that during this early history, the role of males in reproducing the next generation was unknown. The tribe depended on new babies to continue life and women produced the babies, which gave women the most important role in survival.

What remnants of early pagan worship that can be put together from early history indicate that they believed that the earth mother was impregnated by the sky god who was then sacrificed so that summer could return and earth become green and fertile again. For more on this, I think the best book is "When God was a Woman".

As tribes of humans became more numerous, they started fighting against each other for territory and warriors became more important. With hand to hand combat, males had an advantage because of their greater upper body strength. This changed to the male warrior having the most important tribal role for the tribes survival. After generations of this, warriors became more powerful in the tribes because they were more needed even that the old and their wisdom. (more likely women because if they don't die in childbirth, women tend to outlive men) The more powerful men pushed for the male God to become more powerful and eventually the male gods became to be seen as the most powerful gods. Then, mirroring the tribe one strong warrior became chief, so one strong god became head God. Then when religion moved from several gods to only one, the top god became the only God. And the female goddesses were lost to "paganism".

Margret Mead suggested that men are inherently jealous of women's ability to give birth, and they mimic this power in religious ceremonies of being " born again". She said they try to make the way men "give birth" as more important that the way women give birth, because women give birth to a baby, but men give birth to a man or to an eternal man. I would not necessarily say men are jealous, but the symbols of birth/rebirth are in every religion. Heck, this theme even showed up in the movie Avatar where to become an official member of the tribe the person was "born" again. But whether men are jealous or if it is just important symbols of life, all the male god religions have borrowed this being born concept as part their ceremonies.

You would think male God religions evolved from female goddess religions with men stomping out and taking over the roles and importance of women.

[Give It Time]

You would think male God religions evolved from female goddess religions with men stomping out and taking over the roles and importance of women.

You would and much of it is chronicled in The Bible.

Now this is really off topic.

My mother used to say that if men gestated the first, third, fifth children, etc., and women gestated the second, fourth, sixth children, etc., there would be no third children. Voila, truly effective birth control would be found. Yes, there is misandry in my mother's statement, but she also didn't like how pregnancy and childbirth were elevated to this spiritually divine status. She hated how the church leaders just wouldn't catch on to the fact that pregnancy can be miserable and labor is agony (sending the message women should be jumping at the chance to be pregnant as often as possible and that they have no reason to complain).

Most of these discussions happened when my mother was doing the dishes. Maybe the GAs need to help their wives and daughters with the dishes. Rule number one of this activity: they may not talk. Rule number two: they must listen. Rule number three: no mansplaining what you've learned to the women, later. I'm stopping at rule number four which would be gather with your fellow quorum members and pray for further light and knowledge.

[MoPag]

I love this thread!! Lots of awesome posts.

Next, she mentions, and I caught, the feminine divine in triple goddess manifestation. I believe this is very important to put out there as an idea. This triple goddess concept completely contradicts the Madonna/whore binary and gives us some views of women that are more complex and complete. If there are any more versed in paganism than I please chime in.

Funny thing about paganism, it's not a very structured religion. Ask 10 different Pagans and you will probably get 10 different answers. You did a great job covering triple goddess. It basically validates and celebrates women in every stage of their lives. The symbol for triple goddess is a waxing moon, full moon and waning moon. Look closely at my avatar. It might be hard to make out. I used vintage pics of the moonstones from the Nauvoo temple to make it.

I believe embracing the feminine divine can bring a lot of peace and healing. It is so sad that in Mormonism, we acknowledge a feminine divine, but we are taught by mortal men to fear Her.

[Give It Time]

I love this thread!! Lots of awesome posts.

Next, she mentions, and I caught, the feminine divine in triple goddess manifestation. I believe this is very important to put out there as an idea. This triple goddess concept completely contradicts the Madonna/whore binary and gives us some views of women that are more complex and complete. If there are any more versed in paganism than I please chime in.

Funny thing about paganism, it's not a very structured religion. Ask 10 different Pagans and you will probably get 10 different answers. You did a great job covering triple goddess. It basically validates and celebrates women in every stage of their lives. The symbol for triple goddess is a waxing moon, full moon and waning moon. Look closely at my avatar. It might be hard to make out. I used vintage pics of the moonstones from the Nauvoo temple to make it.

I believe embracing the feminine divine can bring a lot of peace and healing. It is so sad that in Mormonism, we acknowledge a feminine divine, but we are taught by mortal men to fear Her.

Thank you, MoPag and Alas, for expanding on paganism. You are right. When I was putting more attention on learning that path, I read that the definition of paganism is anything outside the Abrahamic fold. Even Buddhism and, my current subject of study: Taoism. I'm not sure if I agree with that definition completely, but it does communicate the idea that paganism is very broad.

I had noticed that your avatar is a pentacle, a head-side-up pentacle. I didn't see the phases of the moon. I see them, now. You did a good job on that. Joseph Smith Incorporated a lot a paganism into our religion. A lot of people contend that there is no appropriate spiritual home for a disaffected Mormon. I disagree. I believe there is enough paganism in Mormonism, a disaffected Mormon could find a place there.

I think it's interesting you said that mortal men are taught to fear her. That is exactly the first time I've come across that thought and I think you are exactly right. I think mortal men are taught to fear the feminine divine. I think it is especially accute for Mormon men, because we have an actual female deity in our pantheon.

We could say the reason for hiding Heavenly Mother is polygamy, but fear would be the actual reason there. The church would lose female members. The church would be forced to acknowledge polygamy more openly. This would make them lose a lot of respect in the religious community the church has worked very hard to earn. Perhaps we could consider, for a little while, that polygamy actually has fear of women at its root. I don't know. First time I've considered that thought, but it seems possible.

Then there is the fear of actually openly claiming we have a Heavenly Mother. You say goddess in a Christian community and their first thought will be paganism. In fact, that is the definition of paganism in the Christian community. If the church openly claimed a Heavenly Mother, it would be tantamount to stating we are a pagan religion, rather than Christian. Loss of members. Loss of converts. Loss of respect. Totally ridiculous, but that's what would happen.

Then, there's how we culture our boys and men. A member of the male gender just does not let a member of the female gender beat him, or be stronger than he is. If a man worships a goddess, that would be admitting that it's at least possible for a woman to be stronger than a man.

Finally, the reasons I mentioned above, if our women and girls discover how much their potential has been systematically suppressed, there's a potential Lysistrata in the future.

[MoPag]

Joseph Smith Incorporated a lot a paganism into our religion. A lot of people contend that there is no appropriate spiritual home for a disaffected Mormon. I disagree. I believe there is enough paganism in Mormonism, a disaffected Mormon could find a place there.

Oh totally! When I studied Wicca, I was shocked at how similar it is to Mormonism. Mostly the temple stuff. But it kind of makes sense. Wicca was also founded by freemasons who studied The Key of Solomon, just like JS.

Then there is the fear of actually openly claiming we have a Heavenly Mother. You say goddess in a Christian community and their first thought will be paganism. In fact, that is the definition of paganism in the Christian community. If the church openly claimed a Heavenly Mother, it would be tantamount to stating we are a pagan religion, rather than Christian. Loss of members. Loss of converts. Loss of respect. Totally ridiculous, but that's what would happen.

I've always thought it was this^^ Also loss of members, loss of converts translates to loss of tithing $$$.

Then, there's how we culture our boys and men. A member of the male gender just does not let a member of the female gender beat him, or be stronger than he is. If a man worships a goddess, that would be admitting that it's at least possible for a woman to be stronger than a man.

One of the coolest thing I've learned in paganism: "The highest aspect of something is balance, the lowest aspect is extreme." The imbalance the church causes hurts all of us, both women and men.

Finally, the reasons I mentioned above, if our women and girls discover how much their potential has been systematically suppressed, there's a potential Lysistrata in the future.

Oh, that we may live to see that day!

[Give It Time]

A Lysistrata would be pretty newsworthy. I've heard that Wicca was founded by Freemasons, but there is so much to learn in Wicca, I didn't get that far. I may circle around to it, again, but I'm currently on something else.

Interesting what you say about balance. I'm currently taking an online film class. I love evaluating films. I've noticed that the more extreme toward any end of the spectrum a character gets, the more flat the character is. This is probably true in life as well as film. The characters (and people) who are more interesting are the ones who are balanced.

I did the Flat Stanley thing when my kids were small, but it's no way to live

[MerrieMiss]

I’ve enjoyed reading this – thank you for all of the great comments I was able to read during sacrament meeting yesterday.

Regarding the crone:
This is a long way from female angels, but as I read this, I remembered an article I read when it was assumed that Granny, the oldest known killer whale at approximately 105 years of age, is dead. I can’t find the original article I read, which discussed whales, humans, and elephants, but I’ve linked a similar article.

The question researchers want to know is why does the female of certain species live long past reproduction age and it is suggested that whales and humans provide wisdom in helping the tribe survive. In the case of the whales it was knowing the best places for salmon. For humans:

Old people are the repositories of knowledge in preliterate societies. In my field studies of New Guinea birds, I start work in a new area by gathering the oldest hunters and quizzing them… When the hunters are stumped by my asking about some especially rare bird, they answer: “We don’t know, let’s ask the old man (or woman).” We go into another hut, where we find a blind and toothless old person who can describe a rare bird last seen 50 years ago. Some of that stored information is essential to the survival of the whole village, whose members include most living relatives of the old person. The information encompasses wisdom about how to survive dangers — such as droughts, crop failures, cyclones and raids — that occur at long intervals but that could kill the whole tribe if it did not know how to react.

Elephants are different, as the females do reproduce late in life, but their wisdom helps protect the herd from predators. The herd is led by a female matriarch.

McComb studied 39 groups of elephants at Amboseli National Park, including hundreds of animals who are all individually known. Approaching the herds in vehicles, she played the recorded roars of lions – either one or three, and either all males or all females. She filmed their responses (and asked an independent colleague to confirm her interpretations)...The matriarch was more likely to raise her head and ears, and the others were more likely to quickly draw towards her in a tight huddle. All of the herds reacted in the same way, but only those with older leaders (60 years or more) twigged to the greater danger posed by the fake male roars. They were more likely to draw together, they did so more quickly, and they were even more likely to aggressively mob the lions...The older the matriarchs were, the more sensitive they and their group were to the sound of male lions. They didn’t react in the same way to lionesses, so it wasn’t that they were becoming generally more panicky in their dotage.. Instead, they had become better at discerning the most dangerous roars.

I’m not sure what I’m saying here. Maybe we’re not that far off from the animals and/or the pagans who were more in touch with our more primal selves saw this and emulated it within their divinities. In any event, as I read the comments on this thread I kept coming back to some of these ideas about female animals, age, and wisdom.

Articles:
Why do female humans and whales go through menopause?:
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... ants-dont/

Old elephants protect the herd:
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... ion-moves/

Elephant Matriarch leads herd to protect from wild dogs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgQH6PghEUY

[Give It Time]

I've been really enjoying this thread, too. Thank you for sharing that about the whales and the elephants. I hadn't considered that women outliving menopause would be evolutionarily Counter-Reformation, but there must be some reason for it. I disagree that giving up child bearing is an intentional choice and women in some ancient time created menopause. That reminds me of scientists positing that women cry out when they're in labor, because they need help (it couldn't be that labor is freaking painful!).

It makes more sense to me that menopause is something that is determined by nature, not us determining nature.

It gives me something to think about in considering my crone years. If you want to do something fun, search "crone" on Pinterest.

[DennisTate]

Many near death experiencers are meeting with female angels.

Here is one example:

https://www.near-death.com/religion/chr ... n.html#a11

a. What were you told or shown about this issue?

When I got to Heaven, one of the first things I asked was about the very issue of bisexuality, as it had caused me a great deal of concern my whole life. My lady guide walked me to a room that had a large screen in it. On the screen, I saw two forms of Light conjoining with one another in the act of making Love. My guide then asked me to tell her which was the male and which was the female? I said, "I dunno!" She smiled at me and said it does not matter. She went on to say that the two Lights were what God saw when he looked upon us. She explained that God always sees us as our higher selves and that gender is a very temporary thing that will not be around forever. It was further explained to me that God himself is both a Mother essence and a Father essence to us, therefore; God fully understands our attractions for members of similar genders. It was told to me (or rather I was reminded) that there are no mistakes in the way each of us were made. God knew what each of us would be challenged and blessed with. We each act according to our heart (or developed Soul center) and as we mature Spiritually, we come up higher each time.