Who is Grant Palmer talking about?

[NotKeepingQuiet]

I just listened to the latest Mormon Stories podcast with Grant Palmer where he reaffirms his story of the clandestine meetings with the mysterious GA on numerous occasions, even more recently. Does anyone have any idea who this might be? Or do you think this is a huge red herring?

[AllieOop]

I just listened to the latest Mormon Stories podcast with Grant Palmer where he reaffirms his story of the clandestine meetings with the mysterious GA on numerous occasions, even more recently. Does anyone have any idea who this might be? Or do you think this is a huge red herring?

I don't think he's ever publicly named the GA other than to say that he was a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy. It would be interesting to know if his identity has ever been made known.

[Vlad the Emailer]

I don't know either, but I wish the mystery would be solved if only for the fact that keeping it quiet suggests that it might not be true, and that's the stuff of apologetics, not truth seeking. Personally I'd rather they not bring this up at all, unless and until it can all be brought out into the open.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I don't think this is answerable unless Grant releases the name or the GA himself were to admit to it. It's fascinating if true. It seems Grant projects a persona of honesty and integrity, so I will take him at his word until it's proven false. He's dying of cancer, so I don't see him needing more book sales at this point, so no reason to lie about something like that IMO.

[Red Ryder]

I vote red herring. The story is full of details that are so dumbed down they become vague and speculative at best. My reasons are purely circumstantial but the whole thing doesn't really make much sense in my mind.

First, the story promotes GP's book as the testimony breaker when his book isn't exactly earth shattering. Dialogue, the JoD, the Tanners, Mormonthink, and even the CES letter are better at discussing the issues. Does GP get paid royalty money for his book sales?

Second, the claims of a one million dollar buy out are ridiculous. One million dollars isn't enough money to seal a deal of silence when many of these "church broke" guys are already independently wealthy. It makes for great internet folklore.

Third, when people begin to disbelieve, it's natural to pull away from the church and I'd expect this to occur even with GA's. Does it really make sense that they continue "because people need it"? Is there "an obedient attitude" so strong that a disbeliever would continue to "go along"? They've given up their whole life to the church and they expect to continue after coming to believe its false. Who would do that?

He said they privately talk among themselves and know the foundational claims of the restoration are not true, but continue on boldly “because the people need it,” meaning the people need the church. When the Mission President voiced skepticism and named ___ as one who surely did believe, The GA said: “No, he doesn’t.” The one million dollar gift, plus their totally obedient attitude makes it easy for them to go along when they find out the church is not true. For these reasons and others, he doesn’t expect any apostle to ever expose the truth about the foundational claims.

Last, why give a vague summary of the conversation and refer to "other" reasons. GP could easily recount every detail while still providing anonymity and context. I think in some way this was an attempt to create chaos within the ranks of the leadership perhaps as retribution for forcing GP's resignation to avoid excommunication.

I hope I'm wrong and we find out the truth before GP succumbs to his cancer. But most likely we will never know because it doesn't sound like he's naming names.

ETA: here's Jeff Lindsay's response on FAIR. It's some what interesting in that he compares the list of guys in the first quorum of the seventy when it was split into 2 quorums and comes up with none that meet the criteria in the conversation.

http://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2013/04/ ... -lds-faith

[wtfluff]

My completely random thought on this would be: The "further down the ranks" you go (away from the Q15) the more likely it would be that there is a non-believer in the ranks.

How many folks come here who are completely "under cover"? They don't believe, but they continue to attend, serve etc. because of the ramifications of "coming out" on their employment, family life, etc.

I think it's possible... Though I'm not so sure about the million bucks, etc.

[AllieOop]

I think it's possible... Though I'm not so sure about the million bucks, etc.

I can see them getting all of their debts paid off for them when they're called to devote the rest of their lives to work for the church, but I always thought it was odd that a specific amount was named. But, who knows?

I think all of the rest of it is feasible and Palmer seems like a very decent honorable man. Why would he make it all up?

[Charlotte]

Did John Dehlin bring it up? I can't remember. I was pretty disappointed. I think it casts a bad light on Palmer and kind of cheapens and weakens his whole presentation, which can stand on its own and be discussed without all the other intrigue. He makes such interesting points about the BOM, BOA, and four foundational visions, but they might get ignored or discounted if this other speculation keeps up.

I don't like to think he's making it up, but a tiny part of me wonders.

[AllieOop]

First, the story promotes GP's book as the testimony breaker when his book isn't exactly earth shattering. Dialogue, the JoD, the Tanners, Mormonthink, and even the CES letter are better at discussing the issues. Does GP get paid royalty money for his book sales?

I agree there is the same information elsewhere, but his book was written 10 years before the CES letter and I'm not sure if Mormonthink was around then (it wasn't as known as it is now if existed). I don't doubt that the 70 may have read his book which caused doubts. Palmer's book was one of the first ones I read and it's a great source for having most issues in one place. I think it's excellent and it's still one I would recommend to someone to learn about the issues (who was just starting on that path). It's easy to read and easy to understand.

I wish that he hadn't put the "Golden Pot" chapter in the book as it became fodder for the critics to point at in an attempt to discredit his entire book. I found the chapter entertaining, but again, I wish he hadn't included it in his otherwise very thorough book.

[oliblish]

Did John Dehlin bring it up? I can't remember. I was pretty disappointed. I think it casts a bad light on Palmer and kind of cheapens and weakens his whole presentation, which can stand on its own and be discussed without all the other intrigue. He makes such interesting points about the BOM, BOA, and four foundational visions, but they might get ignored or discounted if this other speculation keeps up.

I don't like to think he's making it up, but a tiny part of me wonders.

John did bring it up. I believe he mentioned that it was the number one question that others had requested to bring up for the podcast. I am glad he brought it up. It gave Grant the opportunity to clarify something that many people had questions about. He even mentioned that he did not know if all of it was true, just that the GA emeritus had said those things.

[Hagoth]

My completely random thought on this would be: The "further down the ranks" you go (away from the Q15) the more likely it would be that there is a non-believer in the ranks.

This is what I would suspect to. When we hear GA we think if the more public ones, but if this guy exists at all he would more likely be someone who's more or less sitting it out on the bench for not being sufficiently church-broke, like what happened when Ronald Poleman failed to toe the line 110%. If it turned out to be Jeffery Holland it would be big, big news, Terrence M. Vinson, who gave one conference talk 4 years ago, not so much.

[Red Ryder]

I wish that he hadn't put the "Golden Pot" chapter in the book as it became fodder for the critics to point at in an attempt to discredit his entire book. I found the chapter entertaining, but again, I wish he hadn't included it in his otherwise very thorough book.

I agree that chapter wasn't needed.

Ironically his book was sold in 2002 at the BYU bookstore for quite some time before it was pulled. I read it back in 2005 and it opened my eyes to the issues. I mailed it last week to someone on reddit.

I'm probably being too skeptical about the whole thing. Sadly it's a bad side effect of my faith transition and my professional career upbringing.

[Just This Guy]

I listened to that yesterday. It sort of goes against the idea of research and scholarship. It is sensational enough to make people interested, but lacks enough detail to actually say anything. You could call it clickbait. This is a disservice to the rest of his work. I do agree if you are going to say it, it needs to be detailed enough to be credible. As is, this is coming across like it is made up. It actually sounds familiar to some aspects of JSj's stories.

If you can't provide enough detail, then you don't include it. That is one of the principles of academic research.

[moksha]

I think the story is interesting and I am glad Mr. Palmer is able to keep the source of an interesting story confidential in order to protect that source. Let's just call that source Elder Deep Throat. Deep Throat can satisfy our pique of curiosity.

Back when Mr. Palmer was more hopeful, he gave a piece of advice to the Church which seemed valuable: Downplay the esoterica and concentrated on being a Christ-centered church. That advice seems valuable on an individual level for members as well.

I wish him peace in his last days of coping with cancer.

[AllieOop]

I'm probably being too skeptical about the whole thing. Sadly it's a bad side effect of my faith transition and my professional career upbringing.

No, I think being skeptical is good. I just feel that what he reported being told by the 70 is completely feasible and I actually think it would be odd if there weren't some who knew the truth and weren't true 100% believers. I have followed Grant Palmer's story and listened to him speak and read his writings (I've read his other book on Christ and it is excellent). I find him to be a man of integrity who gave much of his life serving the church (34 years in the CES). So, I find it hard to believe he'd lie about this. However, I do wish he would have kept it to himself or been able to give more confirming information.

I have a personal friend who was called to be a member of the First Quorum of Seventy and his family has struggled with how he's treated (they are NOT royalty like the apostles). His son has been openly critical and so has his daughter. You probably wouldn't recognize his name (but you might and I won't post it or where he is serving), but he has spoken in general conference.

He was an extremely successful attorney and well known in the area where I used to live. He' had been my Bishop, then the Stake President and other area and district "high" callings. Of course, at the time he was called, he was asked to give up his practice (for the years he was called to serve...until he turned 70 as seventies are asked to do).

Here is what took place when he was called:

- He was called by President Eyring (via Skype). He received a call from Eyring's secretary that morning (at his law office) asking him to be home with his wife that afternoon at a specific time and to have their Skype turned on to receive a call from Pres. Eyring. That's all the notice he had.

- He had to accept or decline on the spot and was given no time to think about it or discuss it with his wife (after the call as she was on the call too) or with his family (they still had one daughter at home who had been accepted to BYU...and they have other kids in the area and some grandkids).

- He was assigned to serve over the church in XXXXXXXX and had to commit to living there for 3-5 years. The church will allow him to come back to the states twice a year (to Salt Lake for April conference and October conference, but not back to his home town). They will only pay his way back to Salt Lake those 2 times, but will not pay for his wife's airline tickets, etc., so they'll have to pay her expenses if she comes with him. He will be traveling to different stakes and wards in the country almost weekly and the church will pay for his travel expenses but if he wants to take his wife with him, he will have to pay for that on his own. She will be allowed to come home once a year if she wants to see her kids and grandkids but will have to pay for this herself. (This is how it is for them, I cannot vouch that this is the case with every first 70).

- They had a fireside in our stake where he and his wife spoke before they left and it was opened up to a Q & A time afterwards. Someone asked his wife what her duties would be and how she planned on spending her time. She answered, "Well I'm stocking up on jigsaw puzzles because it looks like I'll be spending a lot of time alone and especially my weekends alone."

- This man is extremely close to his kids and grandkids. Before he was called, he had just expressed how he thought he was nearing his end of service in time consuming callings and how much he was looking forward to being able to stay home on the weekends and finally spend some time with his wife, kids and grandkids.

- Their entire family initially tried to be very supportive and of course many were thrilled when he was called. But his wife told me that they all struggled with the details. They all just keep saying that one word keeps coming to mind, "SACRIFICE" and they had no idea this was what it was like for a 70. They left for their assignment with their youngest daughter, She had an awful time about them leaving and gave up going to BYU so she could be with them. They are still serving there and she is still with them.

So, learning this about a member of the First Quorum of Seventy, really changed my view of the calling and how they are asked to serve. I can totally see one of them being disillusioned (especially if they learned some of the truths about difficult issues). Of course, I have no idea how others who are called serve (or the assignments they are given are varied, I'm sure). However, I can also see them receiving some type of "bonus" or lump sum of money to pay all their current debts or obligations at the time they are called. This man could have continued practicing law for another 15-20 years and he gave that up. I know they get a stipend but it's not even close to the income he was earning from his law practice.

[Hagoth]

I can also see them receiving some type of "bonus" or lump sum of money to pay all their current debts or obligations at the time they are called.

It would also be a great way to create a sense of indebtedness, especially if given with no terms for repayment and a requisite signature on a nondisclosure agreement.

[Corsair]

Let's pretend that we figure out that this story is real then we conclusively find the precise identity of Palmer's friend in the Quorum of the Seventy. Let's suppose further that this guy decides to make his lack of testimony public. This perfect storm is simply not going to help us very much. The institutional LDS church already has their memes lined up to deal with this guy starting with "the very elect will be deceived." This Seventy's family is going to be clobbered socially if not split up painfully as some children and siblings side with the orthodox church.

And all this time the believers around us, including believing spouses, are probably not going to be swayed much by this. In large measure, no one is coming to save us. We can all be thankful for Grant Palmer, John Dehlin, Lindsay Hansen Park, Jeremy Runnels, and the growing list of agitators with them. But, as the Dalai Lama stated,

"A genuine change must first come from within the individual, only then can he or she attempt to make a significant contribution to humanity."

I don't know who the Seventy might be. Even if I did, I would not bother him since it's only my own cultivated indifference to the LDS church that is going to preserve my own peace. I simply have to see if which friends and family will join me, yet still maintain real charity towards those that simply won't.

[NotKeepingQuiet]

And all this time the believers around us, including believing spouses, are probably not going to be swayed much by this. In large measure, no one is coming to save us. We can all be thankful for Grant Palmer, John Dehlin, Lindsay Hansen Park, Jeremy Runnels, and the growing list of agitators with them. But, as the Dalai Lama stated,
"A genuine change must first come from within the individual, only then can he or she attempt to make a significant contribution to humanity."

amen.......

[Rob4Hope]

Well...I wanna know. But, it ain't because it will change anything for myself. Its just cuz I'm nosy...and I admit it.

So there.

[RubinHighlander]

This perfect storm is simply not going to help us very much. The institutional LDS church already has their memes lined up to deal with this guy...

I don't know who the Seventy might be. Even if I did, I would not bother him since it's only my own cultivated indifference to the LDS church that is going to preserve my own peace.

Upvote for these!

I had lunch with Grant last year, not to get any specific questions answered, as I was already out, but just to chew the fat of a Sizzler steak and chat; a chat and chew, if you will. My friend who introduced us, had lunch with him several times in the past to ask him lots of questions when he went through his faith crises (about five years ago). During our lunch we pressed him just a little bit about the GA, but Grant didn't budge and his story was consistent with past meetings, according to my friend. Grant still professes a relationship with Christ, stronger than it was when he was TBM. My opinion is he's an upstanding guy and his integrity would not reveal the GA's identity. So I'm with Corsair on this one, it wouldn't matter anyway for NOMs or most TBMs, it would have huge impact on the GA's life and family.

I'm guessing there might be 5-10% of the GAs that have serious doubts or are non-believers, but they just roll with it for a host of obvious family, life style and social reasons.

I also gave Grant one of my cool Utah West desert geode seer stones, which he thought was pretty cool.