Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

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Rob4Hope
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Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:03 am

I have a friend I am conversing with. I am changing the name to keep it anonymous. Most of what is written here is mine...but the links don't move via the copy. You folks can find references if you want as much as you want on those.

Anyway...I don't know if I will get a response--but I can't see how anyone can wiggle out of this. We shall see. This stuff fascinates me...

-------------------------

<<name withheld>>…thank you for the response. I agree with some, disagree with some, but have read it through.

This was an issue for me because I lived it for 25 years in marriage. Instead of simply leaving, I stayed. It’s a snapshot of my life…and 25 years is NOT a small number of years, especially when you are hurting.

This type of issue (and “cognitive dissonance” issues) pinwheeled into an area of interest because it involved writing, and when it made it to Jeffrey Holland’s desk, it also became something that is “interesting”. Like I said in previous communications, I have resolved to my satisfaction this dilemma. But, it (and other issues) still fascinates me.

Can I ask ONLY one opinion question of you. You said this:

“The church, which I'm sure you've heard this many times before, is headed by human beings with weaknesses and frailties...including the ones that you cite (prophets of old and dead as well as church authorities still alive).”

Dallin Oaks, in a talk, said it is wrong to criticize leaders, even if the criticism is justified. This is referenced and explained here. This type of teaching gives a “carte blanche” to leaders, especially the Q15, and I think it’s dangerous: if a leader is not subject to feedback that can be critical, they become (doctrinally in this case) above reproach—which in every textbook I’ve ever read, is a recipe for abuse. The LDS folks are taught to rely on God to correct the Q15,…and if He doesn’t, it must mean the Q15 are teaching correct principles and doctrines…right? (or so the teaching goes)

Another corroborating quote is “The Debate is Over”. A reference is found here.

<<name withheld>>…I AM NOT picking a fight. And…this is an opinion question ONLY. You see, the church DOES teach a type of infallibility of the prophet. There is also a quote contained in the back of the scriptures in the manifesto area where WW says the Lord will NEVER allow the prophet to lead the church astray. A reference is found here.

Now, I’m going to give you something to think about. This is one of those “hard” issues….and I think all you can give is an “opinion” on this, because this one is tricky.

Brigham Young (and others—but this is the most overt one so I use it as an example) said some difficult things. Here is an example:

“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.” [emphasis added – so its clear]

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 110

Pay particular attention to the “This will always be so” part…

This is not an isolated statement by Brigham or other church leaders who spoke in the same vein; it is because of these types of statements the church disavowed all prior statements. A reference of that is here.

Why would the church change this “DOCTRINE” since God never has and never will lead the “church astray”?...and leaders, including prophets and apostles clear up to modern times (1978) all said God would never change this doctrine?


OK…that is the ground work…

<<name withheld>>…one of the things that fascinates me (not just with LDS people or religion, but with all types of cultural issues and dilemmas) is how people navigate and justify various “cognitive dissonance” concerns. I’ve presented a difficult one that has real world application: my old Elder’s Quorem President was a North American white man…white as can be; his wife was from <<withheld>>…a beautiful black woman named “<<withheld>>”. They had children,..I had those children in my nursery when I was there. We had all kinds of fun. But here you have a white man married to a black woman, and you have a prophet (and MANY MANY others since who espoused the doctrine as FROM GOD) that would justify, according to the Law of God…”Death on the spot”. And, that doctrine would “always be so”; and yet the doctrine changed?...and, we are NOT to criticize or speak in opposition to the leader?...and, the Lord would never allow the leader to lead the church astray…ever?

You have a dilemma here. This is a clear example of conflict.

You said this below:

“…, and he has promised not to lead us astray through His chosen prophets.”

The church has retroactively disavowed those statements. Brigham Young was wrong…but he spoke from God and declared God’s Law as a prophet?

Ok…how do you reconcile this stuff? Whatever you say I will respect—because (as you mentioned below), we are all entitled to our feelings. (and,…this is an area that fascinates me in human thought…so I explore).

Tag,…your it. 

PS….if you don’t respond, that is fine to. This is a curiosity thing for me. Like I said above, it’s fascinating. For some (and I don’t know if this is you or not) these types of questions are ALARMING and most (I speak from experience) don’t want to even think about it…so they don’t.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:05 am

I will be VERY surprised if I get any response at all. VERY surprised.

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LaMachina
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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by LaMachina » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:33 am

Easy peasy:
I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray. (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)
Covers all bases nicely!

and
The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet (Fourteen Fundamentals)
and
The JoD is NOT doctrine
http://en.fairmormon.org/Journal_of_Dis ... the_Church

Checkmate. ;)

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Corsair » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:22 am

LaMachina wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:33 am
Easy peasy:
I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray. (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)
Covers all bases nicely!

and
The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet (Fourteen Fundamentals)
I agree that this rhetorically takes care of the problem. It will salve the conscience of the vast numbers of LDS believers that simply want to go to church and simply serve on a weekly basis. I think that most members have this in their mind but do their best to not tread into that cognitive dissonance. Their sincere testimony is a trust in a God that will take care of the injustices of history. Being denied ordinances of the church is still a better situation than being in the path of Mongol expansion in the 13th century or being a Carthaginian citizen when Rome sacked it. A believer can be confident that God will hold the guilty responsible in a dispensation of cosmic justice.

With some nuance, a modern believer will simply hold that God has only these capital morons to carry out his plans. The eternal genius of God's plan is that it's all going to work out even though He was playing with second rate intellects carrying out His first rate work of salvation. Modern apostles may not want to come out and publicly denounce Joseph's polyandry and Brigham's racism quite that distinctly, but Uchtdorf's famous "Doubt Your Doubts" conference talk was all about that approach. A tiny part of God's plan is that this backwards, American Restorationist church is going to maintain the critical ordinances of salvation despite what a ridiculous mess they are going to make of LDS culture and practice. The entire human race will one day acknowledge how God's universalizing, infinite atonement will save an astonishingly large percentage of His children despite the damned foolishness of how the plan was implemented by Joseph, up through Monson and beyond.

Some of you may be wondering why I am handing this kind of rhetorical ammunition to the apologists that annoy us so. The preceding paragraph explains away a large amount of LDS problems. However,we apostates can still claim how we are inadvertently working towards the Christian universalism that Heavenly Father has in store for us. The Work of Salvation is going to save Thomas Monson just as much as it will save the Dalai Lama, Fred Rogers, and Red Ryder. Orthodox believers can and should stop bothering us when we drink coffee, watch "Westworld", or sleep late on Sunday morning.

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:54 am

You know...you guys are brilliant and hit this from such different angles that I have to re-read multiple times to let it sink in.

Can I react with a "GUT CHURN" on what I think of the apologists? I have often wondered about how rhetorical arguments can twist and turn things to the point of completely destroying every sense of clarity--even to messing with the fundamental meaning of words. And, it is pure convolutional "HORSE SHIT"!

BY did that type of thing when he could actually justify killing someone as a merciful--even good and gracious act--through his blood atonement. JS would find a way, through invoking sheer terror and such with people, to justify adultry--EVEN in opposition to the doctrines HE SAID GOD REVEALED! How come he was above the law?...oh...the apologists would find a way to work it out. How come he was above section 132?...oh the apologists would find a way to work it out.

Pretty soon (if you follow that pathway), you have to interpret the "Gospel" through a lens where you make everything work, at the complete exclusion and delusion of simple clear thought and reason.

Look...1 + 1 = 2......EFFIN PERIOD! Its NOT 3, Its not "11"....it is 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And for the church to then discount the Journal of Discourses for their plausible deniability, and say a living profit is the "way"...and what about JFS saying that if a prophet (or anyone) says something in opposition to what the scriptures teach, you can be assured they are NOT speaking for God--what about that?...their own damned idiot doctrines contradict their doctrines!!!

ARRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How could I be part of this organization!!!!!

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Corsair » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:31 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:54 am
How could I be part of this organization!!!!!
Very simple: Accident of Birth

An "Accident of Birth" explains 99% of religious affiliation. Considering that many births are already "Accidents of Circumstance", it's no surprise that it also explains religion, politics, and who you rooted for in the Super Bowl.

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:11 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:31 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:54 am
How could I be part of this organization!!!!!
Very simple: Accident of Birth

An "Accident of Birth" explains 99% of religious affiliation. Considering that many births are already "Accidents of Circumstance", it's no surprise that it also explains religion, politics, and who you rooted for in the Super Bowl.
Corsair...I still like your crazy pirate spinning the golden orb on his finger. Your avatar rocks man....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Vlad the Emailer
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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Vlad the Emailer » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:15 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:54 am
Can I react with a "GUT CHURN" on what I think of the apologists? I have often wondered about how rhetorical arguments can twist and turn things to the point of completely destroying every sense of clarity--even to messing with the fundamental meaning of words. And, it is pure convolutional "HORSE Crap"!
Yes. Such is the very nature of Mopologetics. You just make an argument. It truly doesn't matter what it is. You just have to create in the mind of the reader the possibly that some kind of reasonable answer exists. That's why I, personally, have an extremely low opinion of Mormon apologists. It's one thing to choose to delude yourself, but it's something else entirely to try to convince others to do the same, and to criticize and insult them if they won't. The bottom line is as my signature quote reads, "if an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest".

ARRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How could I be part of this organization!!!!!
How indeed. :roll: :roll: :roll:
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest. - Anonymous

Say what you want about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying. - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:20 pm

Vlad the Emailer wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:15 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:54 am
Can I react with a "GUT CHURN" on what I think of the apologists? I have often wondered about how rhetorical arguments can twist and turn things to the point of completely destroying every sense of clarity--even to messing with the fundamental meaning of words. And, it is pure convolutional "HORSE Crap"!
Yes. Such is the very nature of Mopologetics. You just make an argument. It truly doesn't matter what it is. You just have to create in the mind of the reader the possibly that some kind of reasonable answer exists. That's why I, personally, have an extremely low opinion of Mormon apologists. It's one thing to choose to delude yourself, but it's something else entirely to try to convince others to do the same, and to criticize and insult them if they won't. The bottom line is as my signature quote reads, "if an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest".

ARRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How could I be part of this organization!!!!!
How indeed. :roll: :roll: :roll:
It could be worse....I could be an apologist!....

Oooo....how LOW can you GO!!!!!!

Walking on the bottom here....

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Vlad the Emailer
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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Vlad the Emailer » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:58 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:20 pm
Vlad the Emailer wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:15 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:54 am
Can I react with a "GUT CHURN" on what I think of the apologists? I have often wondered about how rhetorical arguments can twist and turn things to the point of completely destroying every sense of clarity--even to messing with the fundamental meaning of words. And, it is pure convolutional "HORSE Crap"!
Yes. Such is the very nature of Mopologetics. You just make an argument. It truly doesn't matter what it is. You just have to create in the mind of the reader the possibly that some kind of reasonable answer exists. That's why I, personally, have an extremely low opinion of Mormon apologists. It's one thing to choose to delude yourself, but it's something else entirely to try to convince others to do the same, and to criticize and insult them if they won't. The bottom line is as my signature quote reads, "if an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest".

ARRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How could I be part of this organization!!!!!
How indeed. :roll: :roll: :roll:
It could be worse....I could be an apologist!....

Oooo....how LOW can you GO!!!!!!

Walking on the bottom here....
Nawww, I don't think you could. Your words are as definitive as mine on the subject.

They're beyond ridiculous. Reading their words (I lost my testimony reading FAIRMORMON) is so mind numbing and intelligence insulting, it is difficult to put ones true reaction into words. Encouraging ignorance is as low as it gets!!!
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest. - Anonymous

Say what you want about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying. - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by SunbeltRed » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:31 am

I totally agree with you R4H -

It's strange that somehow we are the odd ones for not being to keep it all together and just believe when it is so obviously fantastical and downright crazy to profess that prophets are true and correct and then in the next instant be able to disavow things they have said when you don't like it. Obviously we are the crazy ones here.

The apologist arguments helped me for a while, but mostly because it was sort of like, ok, someone has a response I don't need to think about it much more, this work for me. But once I spent some actual time thinking through the problems and some of the broader implications, it became pretty clear that the apologist angles were so wonky they quit working and actually became negatives.

I'm glad you have a friend that is at least willing to engage. Even friends that I have basically told I am out, and we are still friends, don't really want to get into details.

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:57 am

SunbeltRed wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:31 am
I totally agree with you R4H -

It's strange that somehow we are the odd ones for not being to keep it all together and just believe when it is so obviously fantastical and downright crazy to profess that prophets are true and correct and then in the next instant be able to disavow things they have said when you don't like it. Obviously we are the crazy ones here.

The apologist arguments helped me for a while, but mostly because it was sort of like, ok, someone has a response I don't need to think about it much more, this work for me. But once I spent some actual time thinking through the problems and some of the broader implications, it became pretty clear that the apologist angles were so wonky they quit working and actually became negatives.

I'm glad you have a friend that is at least willing to engage. Even friends that I have basically told I am out, and we are still friends, don't really want to get into details.
This is the psychological prison that indoctrination causes. You are taught that questioning is evil, the devil is making you doubt, so your evolved survival instincts override your rational thought processes. It takes higher and higher doses of cognitive dissonance to break the programming. I find this aspect fascinating and am trying to figure out methods to induce it effectively in my own children so they can break the programming someday sooner than I did.

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:52 am

I have been thinking about the "Lectures on Faith"...and how that sets the stage as it were for turning off your brain.

Here is what freaks me these days: In order to "believe" and "have faith", you have to reach out with emotions and feelings while you gravitate to and embrace concepts that have little or no proof, and that is considered "spiritual". And yet, at the same time (and this is the dangerous part), you are to turn off your rational questioning mind because you must accept things "which are not seen, which are true."

The proof they are true?.... it exists ONLY in "Oh I got a good feeling." But, when something comes up that causes trouble--a tangible item that contradicts things--those end up being convoluted and discounted because faith is, by definition, founded on "truth" which is NOT PROVABLE.

Can anyone say OXYMORON!????

The VERY concept of faith is based on a contradiction. You can't see it, but its true. DUH....

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by wtfluff » Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:28 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:52 am
Here is what freaks me these days: In order to "believe" and "have faith", you have to reach out with emotions and feelings while you gravitate to and embrace concepts that have little or no proof, and that is considered "spiritual". And yet, at the same time (and this is the dangerous part), you are to turn off your rational questioning mind because you must accept things "which are not seen, which are true."

The proof they are true?.... it exists ONLY in "Oh I got a good feeling." But, when something comes up that causes trouble--a tangible item that contradicts things--those end up being convoluted and discounted because faith is, by definition, founded on "truth" which is NOT PROVABLE.
And... THIS is exactly how your friend can "wiggle out" of absolutely any contradiction you show her.

"Faith" trumps everything. Her manipulated emotions are much more important than science or evidence.

Holy the Ghost told her, and you? You just gotta have more faith.

How does the saying go? "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." (Or something like that...)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:07 pm

She read it. I don't know if she will ever respond,...but she is wiggling around trying to figure it out. She is going after the references, and I think she is going to try an apologetic response. She is also praying about it and so forth.

I hope she does respond. This will be interesting to me....

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Korihor » Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:03 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:07 pm
She read it. I don't know if she will ever respond,...but she is wiggling around trying to figure it out. She is going after the references, and I think she is going to try an apologetic response. She is also praying about it and so forth.

I hope she does respond. This will be interesting to me....
I'm looking forward to any updates you have.
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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Re: Letter to a friend -- I don't know how she can wiggle out of this

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:54 am

If anything good happens, it will take a long time. She takes a very high level view of things, almost like an apologist who doesn't even accept the facts.

Getting her to accept the facts in the first place will be the challenge.

Not done yet,...but will see as time unfolds.

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