Sincere or emotional manipulation?

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:30 pm

Here is a video of a recent youth face2face meeting with Eyring and Holland. What do you think, real emotion or a master class in emotional manipulation? Could it be both? I seem to recall as a TBM at times feeling compelled to turn on some emotion due to cultural pressures. All while subconsciously "knowing" it was my own cognitive creation "forcing" it.

https://youtu.be/dcdqj37fbWo

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Random
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by Random » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:24 pm

Eyring turns the tears and choking voice on and off so fast (watch any general conference) that I suspect manipulation. It could be unconscious, though. And maybe he's a crybaby for real? I dunno. I'd like to view him with as much compassion as I can.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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wtfluff
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by wtfluff » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:43 pm

The Q15 are masters at HeartSell™ (literally Trademarked™ emotional manipulation).

But... I also agree with Random that they may not even realize that they're doing it.

Anyone who went on a mission used the same emotional sales tactics to try and convince people to join the church. How many of us realized that what we were doing was manipulative?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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moksha
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by moksha » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:20 am

Wonder how this Primary aged group video, Always Submit to the Church Administration, would fit on the manipulation scale?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nmYOQIidqo
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Enoch Witty
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by Enoch Witty » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:44 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:20 am
Wonder how this Primary aged group video, Always Submit to the Church Administration, would fit on the manipulation scale?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nmYOQIidqo
Hey, at least it makes "Follow the Prophet" look not quite so cult-y.

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Corsair
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by Corsair » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:23 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:20 am
Wonder how this Primary aged group video, Always Submit to the Church Administration, would fit on the manipulation scale?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nmYOQIidqo
I had to watch enough of this rather distressing song to figure out if this was a parody or not. If this had shown up as a scene in a movie featuring a secretly oppressive church taking over the government, movie critics would have panned this song as being far too unbelievable in the movie. So this makes me more self-conscious of several notable songs in the current Primary Children's Songbook. Outsiders must thoroughly cringe over "Follow the Prophet" wondering why the Mormons can't see why this song is crazy.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by MerrieMiss » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:17 pm

In case you need to wash your eyes and ears after that:

https://youtu.be/nBtk39S6Z9g

It was a sad day when I realized Sesame Street provided better morals, teachings, and emotional wellness than church. I'm okay with it now, but it was a sad realization at the time.
Corsair wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:23 pm
So this makes me more self-conscious of several notable songs in the current Primary Children's Songbook. Outsiders must thoroughly cringe over "Follow the Prophet" wondering why the Mormons can't see why this song is crazy.
The primary chorister in a friend's ward gave each child a popsicle stick with Pres. Monson's face on it and had them march with the sticks while singing that song. Apparently a lot of people were uncomfortable with that...
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:30 pm
I seem to recall as a TBM at times feeling compelled to turn on some emotion due to cultural pressures. All while subconsciously "knowing" it was my own cognitive creation "forcing" it.
I never could get myself to do it and I felt defective for it. This is the big question I've always had: Is it real or not? Like Random I'd like to view people as compassionately as possible. I think some people are manipulative, others learn it and view it as an acceptable practice and go with the flow. Some people really do cry a lot. But I wonder how many fight inwardly knowing that they are putting it on.
The true opposite of order is not disorder but freedom. Most profoundly, the true opposite of control is not chaos but self-control. -Jay Griffiths

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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by LSOF » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:40 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:23 pm
moksha wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:20 am
Wonder how this Primary aged group video, Always Submit to the Church Administration, would fit on the manipulation scale?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nmYOQIidqo
I had to watch enough of this rather distressing song to figure out if this was a parody or not. If this had shown up as a scene in a movie featuring a secretly oppressive church taking over the government, movie critics would have panned this song as being far too unbelievable in the movie. So this makes me more self-conscious of several notable songs in the current Primary Children's Songbook. Outsiders must thoroughly cringe over "Follow the Prophet" wondering why the Mormons can't see why this song is crazy.
Don't forget "Praise to the Man". We don't worship Joseph Smith! We swear! (Someone in my youth group actually said this to a recent convert when that song was sung.)
"I appreciate your flesh needs to martyr me." Parture

"There is no contradiction between faith and science --- true science." Dr Zaius

Pastor, Lunar Society of Friends; CEO, Faithful Origins and Ontology League

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MoPag
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by MoPag » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:09 pm

They aren't spiritual leaders. They are businessmen and bureaucrats. But they hold the role of spiritual leader within the LDS faith. Since they don't have innate spirituality that spiritual leaders are supposed to have, they have to use emotion to fake it.

I mean think of someone who really is a spiritual leader. Just off the top of my head I'll pick the Dali Lama and Mya Angelou. They are truly spiritual leaders. And you can tell when they speak. They don't have to resort to this odd play of emotions.

Sincere or emotional manipulation? I think they sincerely want to be successful spiritual leaders, but they aren't.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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nibbler
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by nibbler » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:01 am

I was one of those weepy types. Every once in a while I'd get emotional when teaching a lesson or giving a talk. It wasn't a matter of turning on the water works because that's what I had seen others do, it was genuine emotion.

Looking back I think it was mostly related to severe scrupulosity. I always operated under the assumption that I was not good enough. Just the act of being up in front of a crowd in the spotlight was enough to make me vulnerable, tear down a few emotional barriers that I maintained. Once that happened I was free to emote and communicate my sense of self loathing.

But that was a younger me. Had I not broken the spell that unhealthy guilt had over me I don't know whether I'd still be sobbing from the pulpit well into my 80s. I kinda expect life to treat people to experiences that harden them over the years but that isn't always the case.

I understand Eyring's sobbing but he does seem to be able to turn it off quickly. I get how those feelings can jump up out of nowhere but usually it takes a little while to regain composure. Maybe that's where years of practice has helped him. Maybe when emotion overcomes Eyring he thinks of BKP lecturing on cookies and kisses and he snaps out of it.

Manipulation?

That's a tough call. Sometimes people subconsciously learn behaviors because it produces the results they desire. It's not that they're intentionally being manipulative, it's just that when they do certain things other people react in certain ways. The behavior was reinforced at a subconscious level. As a person that involuntarily cried at one stage in my journey I'd say that Eyring isn't trying to manipulate. The end result of the behaviors may be manipulative but I see it as a question of intent.

I also saw a video about Eyring's use of cold reading which he also does during the course of that fireside. "I'm thinking of some people in this room for instance, that uh, ah, how can I bear my testimony to you, in fact there's things that you need to change."

It was a pretty weak argument but I see their point. Michael Mclean would do this sort of thing all the time. "I feel like someone in the audience tonight really needs to hear this... ♪ You're not alone ♫ ... even when you're feeling on your own ♩ "

It's how we connect with people. Cold reading? I'll leave that to the patriarchs. ;) :twisted:
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:48 am

MoPag wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:09 pm
They aren't spiritual leaders. They are businessmen and bureaucrats. But they hold the role of spiritual leader within the LDS faith. Since they don't have innate spirituality that spiritual leaders are supposed to have, they have to use emotion to fake it.

I mean think of someone who really is a spiritual leader. Just off the top of my head I'll pick the Dali Lama and Mya Angelou. They are truly spiritual leaders. And you can tell when they speak. They don't have to resort to this odd play of emotions.

Sincere or emotional manipulation? I think they sincerely want to be successful spiritual leaders, but they aren't.
This is an excellent observation. The Dali Lama just has a respectable presence that doesn't need extra dressing to be effective.

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MoPag
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by MoPag » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:14 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:48 am
MoPag wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:09 pm
They aren't spiritual leaders. They are businessmen and bureaucrats. But they hold the role of spiritual leader within the LDS faith. Since they don't have innate spirituality that spiritual leaders are supposed to have, they have to use emotion to fake it.

I mean think of someone who really is a spiritual leader. Just off the top of my head I'll pick the Dali Lama and Mya Angelou. They are truly spiritual leaders. And you can tell when they speak. They don't have to resort to this odd play of emotions.

Sincere or emotional manipulation? I think they sincerely want to be successful spiritual leaders, but they aren't.
This is an excellent observation. The Dali Lama just has a respectable presence that doesn't need extra dressing to be effective.
John Oliver just did and interview with the Dali Lama. It's on youtube. I'm at work or I would post the link. But it was so wonderful/profound/funny. And I learned stuff from it too.


In contrast, let's really break down what Eyring was saying in the face to face:

"I went into the woods and prayed and got a good feeling...Once I talked to a group on non-LDS smart people and they were like: OMG you sound like God...God helps me be more awesome all the time."

How is any of that even remotely spiritual? It's a pitiful combination of arrogant/ridiculous. You could find more spirituality in a random episode of Oprah.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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GoodBoy
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Re: Sincere or emotional manipulation?

Post by GoodBoy » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:45 am

I've paid attention to Eyring when he talks and he gets the emotional voice on pretty mundane, stupid stuff that pretty much nobody would get emotional about, so I have to believe that at least part of it is just a nervous thing that he does.

I also taught in the MTC for two years and I we did lots of roll playing when we were practicing teaching skills. I watched lots of missionaries turn the "spriritual voice" on when they were to a part that required it, and then off immediately again when we were reviewing how they did. So again, at least part of it can be a performance.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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