Keeping up with Trump

Chat about a topic supported by books, TED Talks, podcasts, personal experience, philosophies of mankind mingled with humor (shout out to IOT), and maybe we’ll even do a google hangout or conference call once a month.
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alas
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by alas » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:34 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:53 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:18 pm
Sure, 74 million voted for Trump but let's not be so quick to simply write off the 81 million of us who voted otherwise (plus a shout out to the Kanye voters!). It might start to dawn on them why we are so upset that a mob of MAGA people smashed up our capitol with the intent of stopping our votes from being counted, and with threats to hang our vice president and abduct and kill our elected leaders, Democrat and Republican alike.

BTW, that 74 million number does not remotely represent the number of people who continue to stand behind him if his approval rating is any indication.
I find this an interesting question, too, how much support Trump actually has. Or Biden for that matter. It's anecdotal evidence, to be sure, so take it with a grain of salt, but it jives with other things I've read and heard on the margins.

I have two wonderful American sons in law. I love them both. Both are Republican, which is cool. One really doesn't like Trump, and for the first time ever, voted Democrat, BUT JUST FOR PRESIDENT. He voted Republican everywhere else. But that's how much he hates Trump. And he doesn't like Biden; and I can even understand that. Biden has all the charisma of a limp noodle. But he hated Trump so much, that he voted for Biden. So I'm wondering if some Biden voters are similar, they are just anti-Trump votes. Again, also based on some other things I've read. Not the majority believes this, I'm sure, but does the silent minority?

My other son in law, doesn't like Trump either. But he's a Republican, and so voted for Trump. But did so RELUCTANTLY.

How many others in the 74 million, feel the same way? That they are reluctant Trump voters, not really Trump supporters. I'm sure the Georgia/Arizona governors are in this camp, for example. And how many of the 81 million are reluctant Biden voters? It's an interesting question that I'm not seeing addressed in any meaningful way. And maybe it's as simple as this - voting reluctantly is a very Canadian trait, so I'm just transposing this to the American context, and it really doesn't mean that many people did it. But I sure would be interested in American opinions about this.
Interesting question. I am pretty much an independent. Well, up until the last few years. Unless the Repugs do some major overhauling of their party, I will never vote Repug again. Most I the current party have the morals of a slug. I have voted Republican many times. Voted for Utah’s current gov and would again. So, that has been me up unti this election. Now, You can count me as an anti trump vote. I didn’t care who was running against trump, whoever it was had my vote. My husband has always been Republican and was actually torn between Trump and Hillary. This election, he was against Trump. Anyone who was running against trump had his vote. My neighbors were none of them FOR Biden. Some were for Bernie, and some were afraid Berni was too much of a socialist and wanted a more moderate. So, Biden was at best a compromise as the most likely to be able to pull some Trump supporters away. Dems picked him, not because they were wild about him, but because he seemed most electable under the circumstances.

Likewise, I think a lot of the votes Trump got in 2016 were anti Hillary. And still, she won the popular vote. So, when you get someone who isn’t Hillary, they stand a good chance of beating trump.

shrugged
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by shrugged » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:59 pm

Mormorissey- Your post is very similar to my own experience. In fact, the other night I posted on my personal FB page that as a SAHM in a pandemic I’ve had a lot of free time and spent countless hours researching fraud claims instead of cleaning house. I recommended the 60 Minutes interview of the GA officials that had just been on tv. I begged them, If they still believed the fraud claims, to ask themselves what the proper channel for reconciliation was. The courts set up by our founding fathers and outlined in the Constitution or violence.

Also like you, I know a lot of reliable Republicans who oppose Trump and a lot who voted reluctantly for him. I myself never voted blue before 2020. I really disliked Trump from the beginning so I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016. Over the 4 years of his presidency I grew more disgusted and decided I had no choice but to vote blue no matter who. I would have even voted for Bernie which is still shocking to me. My DH, also a formerly reliable Republican, voted reluctantly for Trump in 2016. He couldn’t in 2020 but also couldn’t go as far as voting blue so he voted LP. Still a lost vote for Trump. I do also have a lot of friends and family who are rabidly supportive and that worries me. The ones making excuses for last week’s terror attack are especially disappointing.


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Mormorrisey
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:54 pm

shrugged wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:59 pm
In fact, the other night I posted on my personal FB page that as a SAHM in a pandemic I’ve had a lot of free time and spent countless hours researching fraud claims instead of cleaning house. I recommended the 60 Minutes interview of the GA officials that had just been on tv. I begged them, If they still believed the fraud claims, to ask themselves what the proper channel for reconciliation was.
A great point, shrugged, and I think when all of this is said and done, it will be the low level election workers who simply did their jobs in the face of aggressive and abusive poll watchers, as well as the Republicans who didn't bend to Trump's will in the swing states that will be the true heroes of the story. That they saved democracy in the face of threats and intimidation. In fact, after listening to the entire one hour phone call that Trump made to Raffensperger, the Georgia Secretary of State and his right-hand lawyer man, I'm convinced that his stoic, repeated message that Trump had his facts wrong will be the John Welch moment of the Trump era. You know, Welch, the guy that asked Joseph McCarthy if he had any decency, thus ending the witch hunts. It was that impressive.

Any true Trump supporter needs to ask themselves the simple question, why. Why would Gov. Ducey in Arizona and Gov. Kemp in Georgia and their political cronies, good GOP people all, risk their political careers by not catering to the whims of the #StoptheSteal crowd? Why didn't Raffensperger cave when Trump bullied and threatened him for an hour? Because they knew any notion of an election fraud was a lie. Pure and simple.
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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:39 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:14 am
Here's why *I* think I'm smarter than you...
Thank you for being so bold as to admit it.
I watched what happened with my own eyes. I listened to what Trump said with my own ears. I reviewed what transpired and used my critical thinking brain to determine that our president appears more concerned about his image than his country. I did not rely on someone else and fringe websites to tell me the "real" story.

I respect differences of opinion. I less respect when someone says they'll never change their opinion no matter what.

I honestly tried to like the man. I looked at the information some of my friends say supports his contention of being a stable genius. I critically reviewed data from both sides. I did not have an answer before I asked the questions. I did not say I would never change my mind, as you did. People who cannot change their opinion in the face of disconfirming info are not, in my opinion, especially smart. Faithful, believing, dedicated, loyal? Perhaps.

Hopefully, our country will rebound from this. Hopefully there will not be any more ridiculous acts from rabid Trumpers. Hopefully there will not be any similarly ridiculous retaliatory acts from those who hate the Trumpers. Hopefully cooler heads prevail and four years from now we can have some more discussions about who should lead the country.

A long time ago I thought this country would probably do well to swing back and forth from left to right every few years, which might keep us somewhere around the middle of the road. It wouldn't please everyone, but it might just make it best for everyone. I still think that's probably not a terrible idea. I fear, however, that we have not seen our last "Trump", or our last charismatic power hungry idol able to foment a large number of followers with victim complexes using a mass of misinformation. I predict "Trump" will become a word for this type of person. His effect has been huge. Global. Like an epidemic.

Tell me... Do you think OJ was innocent? I've heard a lot of people do.
I was torn with OJ. It seemed like he did it. But I accepted the ruling of the courts because I did not know. I didn't lose sleep over it. I didn't argue about it. Later he admitted it in a book and more or less I didn't care at that point.

I don't remember the exact details. I think the case failed because Mark Fuhrman tampered with evidence.

Back to why you think "you" are smarter than me.

You look at "evidence" that authority gives to you. You come to the conclusion that they want you to come to. You process that information so well that you come to the exact same conclusion as all of your colleagues. My wife and I often talk about these things. And believe it or not, quite often at the end of the discussion we look at each other and say, I don't know what to think. We really don't know what is going on in many cases. That isn't because we didn't listen to the official report, we just didn't believe it.

The facts are not so important as the Observer. Sort of like Aunt Sally observing the facts vs Dr. Sherlock Holmes. I am no Sherlock Holmes, but I definitely look at things from different perspectives.

I'm not a smart man. But I have had the "authorities" rule against me, or accuse me enough that looking for other possibilities is almost second nature. I think many "Patriots" are used to getting screwed by the authorities. So they are used to seeing things differently.

My point is, the truth isn't a single sided idea. For example, the slaveowners of the 1860s. They were convinced that God had endowed them with the right to own other humans. When they fought for their "rights" it was their God given right to take the resources and produce from a "dumber" people. And when those slave owners gave the facts to the other non-slaveowners, it made sense to them. Even if they didn't have slaves it was still their right. Anyone that didn't understand that was stupid and a threat to their freedom.

Now the Republicans at the time thought slavery was wrong. No matter how the South worded it, owning other humans was wrong.

There is no way I can convince you that I am smarter because, well, I'm not. But something to consider.

Do you ever notice how hardcore Trumpers are usually also conspiracy theorists? It's not that they are smart and wise, it's because they look into all sorts of information. They will read about the latest corporate merger and then switch over to watch whistleblowers on the Satanic rituals where the elite sacrifice children to compromise/obligate people wanting to have seats of power. Is it true? Could people really be that sick? Why does this sound like history both ancient and recent? Then we switch over to a Constitution zealot like Carl Tucker or Mark Levine. We will stumble over Robert Colbert for a second remembering the old days before the bile comes back up in our throat.

Then we switch over to a place like, www.godlikeproduction.com where 10s of thousands of news and doom junkie share stories from all over the world. Stories are presented and instantly counter stories are connected. Half of it is crap but you learn to spot the difference.

My point is, when I hear a story I get analysis from a dozens of different sources. After awhile you actually begin to resent news stations. Like maybe there is a Trump video that the media is ripping it to shreds. Some news junkie has compiled three or four links to news articles or YouTube videos that give it more context. Or maybe they are accusing Trump of inciting a riot then someone might compile 20 or 30 clips where Democrat senators and Congress women are inciting crowds to violence.

It's not a pro Trump site by any means. In fact there are a fair amount of Trump haters there. Oddly enough however, news junkies tend to support Trump.

Bottom line is, I don't restrict my opinions to mainstream media. I have been accused of trusting internet videos as a valid news source. I cannot always tell, but faking a video can be trickier than it seems. For example, I have watched dozens of internet videos that captured CNN staging a disaster scene. Literally, the blood and gore on their nightly news was a stage setup. When they were done filming the victims got up and walked away. You don't see that on mainstream news. And small time amateurs cannot afford to pay 30 or 40 actors with expensive equipment to play out a scene.

There are places where people gather these types of videos from ordinary people and put them on the internet in the centralized location. This doesn't make me smart. It makes me very skeptical.

Of course I have seen the mainstream news reports that said there was no fraud. I have seen videos taken by poll watchers at the scene showing where they were locked out of the building. I have seen dozens of videos of people right in the counting rooms expressing frustration and anger as they counted Trump ballots throwing every third one into the trash in a fit of rage. I have seen video clips of Democrat Congresswoman counting votes, possibly in her own district. I have seen videoes of concerned citizens (campaign workers) confronting men illegally taking ballots from dropboxes.

I don't know where it happened. But it seemed to happen somewhere. So when campaign workers and other witnesses came forward with stories of fraud, there actually was a lot of evidence. But what we saw was oftentimes just the evidence disconnected from the details. But it was enough evidence that should have amounted to a major crime wherever it happened.

Bottom line, the facts that you get from mainstream media are not even close to all of the facts. They are the facts that have been sanitized for your consumption. They are the facts that when you read them they know what you will think.

You don't believe me? Look at what a massive effort they have made to silence people. I was reading tonight that my new platform, Parler, May never come back online. They did nothing wrong. But they have been hit so hard by Big Tech They may never recover. If your team has the truth why is it so desperate to silence us? They impeached the president for a second time 7 days before the end of his term. Are they really trying to save the country or trying to cover their ass?

If you get away from the mainstream news, then you know that the FBI and capital police knew that attack was pre-planned. Trump was going to walk with his supporters, but the attack happened during his speech. It wasn't like he said some wrong word and everybody went insane and attacked the Capitol building.

Congress knows it was a pre-planned attack. They said so ride in the debate of the impeachment. But the Democrats are trying to downplay this fact. They know it wasn't the president who incited the attack. But whoever was behind the attack got a hold of Nancy pelosi's laptop among was several other Congress people. The guy that was in Nancy Pelosi's office conveniently drew both other rioters and police into her office. They got her laptop and perhaps a few documents on her desk.

They act like they are trying to save us from the president. But many other sources think she is trying to save her own ass. Someone mentioned that the VP elect was sworn in again as a senator. They are not sure of anything. But they will continue to blast us because their power comes from you guys thinking I'm evil.

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Hagoth
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:10 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:39 pm
Bottom line is, I don't restrict my opinions to mainstream media.
That's great, but you're not doing yourself any favors by trusting Alt-Right propaganda sources like the ones you have quoted here. Simply proclaiming mainstream media untrustworthy does not make the heavily agenda-driven fringe media any more reliable.
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:39 pm
I have seen videos taken by poll watchers at the scene showing where they were locked out of the building.
I have seen videos of self-proclaimed poll watchers outside the building while the duly appointed official poll watchers were inside doing their job.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

shrugged
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by shrugged » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:21 am

Hagoth wrote: That's great, but you're not doing yourself any favors by trusting Alt-Right propaganda sources like the ones you have quoted here. Simply proclaiming mainstream media untrustworthy does not make the heavily agenda-driven fringe media any more reliable.
This may be one of the most important points we can help people understand these days. Well said.


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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:29 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:10 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:39 pm
Bottom line is, I don't restrict my opinions to mainstream media.
That's great, but you're not doing yourself any favors by trusting Alt-Right propaganda sources like the ones you have quoted here. Simply proclaiming mainstream media untrustworthy does not make the heavily agenda-driven fringe media any more reliable.
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:39 pm
I have seen videos taken by poll watchers at the scene showing where they were locked out of the building.
I have seen videos of self-proclaimed poll watchers outside the building while the duly appointed official poll watchers were inside doing their job.
Please! This is me you're talking about. I don't simply do anything. If I am guilty of anything in my life it is overthinking things. Then I'm pretty much okay withself proclaimed anything, Just prove it.

So what you were telling me though, is that what I watched as legitimate poll watchers kicked out of a counting area, or setback beyond a reasonable distance to observe, you are claiming or self-proclaimed poll watchers? Poll watchers are in a sense self-proclaimed but they are licensed. As a poll watcher I can go watch the polls as long as I am certified by my party. Of course you've get to know the judge of elections and let them know who you are and what you will be doing. But there is an obligation to have both parties observe the county. In some cases they're simply isn't a poll watcher available. For example in my precinct it is a little bit difficult to find people to man all of the stations. In such cases the judge of elections makes special conditions but tries to have the right people there to observe the counting.

Here in PA, our attorney general began passing laws or rules of some sort to block Republican poll watchers. He claimed that they were Trump poll watchers and only there to intimidate voters. I have never heard of such a thing.

Anyway, when I heard that the Republican poll watchers turned away or kicked out of the counting areas, they knew something was a mess. Because it was in those very same spots that the questionable numbers appeared.

But you dismissed it as so-called poll watchers because someone told you that they weren't legitimate. The bottom line is, there were many counting sessions that did not have Republicans watching. And they wanted to be watching.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:12 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:29 am

Anyway, when I heard that the Republican poll watchers turned away or kicked out of the counting areas, they knew something was a mess. Because it was in those very same spots that the questionable numbers appeared.

But you dismissed it as so-called poll watchers because someone told you that they weren't legitimate. The bottom line is, there were many counting sessions that did not have Republicans watching. And they wanted to be watching.
I've heard this argument before, and I am genuinely curious. Does this then mean there was election fraud, simply because there weren't any Republican poll watchers? I'm not sure this proves anything, other than there were disputes over Republican poll watchers. It seems to be a very large grievance that might not mean anything at all.

As a wise Canadian Prime Minister once said, "the proof is the proof, and it's a proof because it's proven."

https://youtu.be/sjAyesKyYE8
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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moksha
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by moksha » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:34 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:29 pm
moksha wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:08 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:08 pm
I can't shake the opinion that his attempt to drain the swamp looks more like filling a cesspool.
The whole idea of replacing swamp water with raw sewage was very Trumpian, but the magic was getting his followers to inhale deeply and relish the scent.
More insults.

Can you explain to me why you think you are so much smarter than me?

All I ever hear is how much more Superior you are. Why are you better than Trump supporters?
I would never assert that I am smarter. I too like to tell whoppers, but I think you've got me beat there. Maintaining a running narrative of lies for Donald Trump is quite a feat, although you undoubtedly pull a number of talking points off of the QAnon site.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:54 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:12 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:29 am

Anyway, when I heard that the Republican poll watchers turned away or kicked out of the counting areas, they knew something was a mess. Because it was in those very same spots that the questionable numbers appeared.

But you dismissed it as so-called poll watchers because someone told you that they weren't legitimate. The bottom line is, there were many counting sessions that did not have Republicans watching. And they wanted to be watching.
I've heard this argument before, and I am genuinely curious. Does this then mean there was election fraud, simply because there weren't any Republican poll watchers? I'm not sure this proves anything, other than there were disputes over Republican poll watchers. It seems to be a very large grievance that might not mean anything at all.

As a wise Canadian Prime Minister once said, "the proof is the proof, and it's a proof because it's proven."

https://youtu.be/sjAyesKyYE8
This alone does constitute fraud. Sometimes the number of Republicans or Democrats in a particular area may not number enough to have people to actually observe. In such cases, it doesn't really matter because obviously the other team has the most votes.

This was not one of those cases. We wanted watchers there. We demanded to have watchers there. It was our right within the rules of the election. They were blocked. That is fraud.

This is no different than when we were kids and the big brother would turn his back to us as he counted out the M&M's. There must be transparency where it is fair.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:56 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:34 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:29 pm
moksha wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:08 pm

The whole idea of replacing swamp water with raw sewage was very Trumpian, but the magic was getting his followers to inhale deeply and relish the scent.
More insults.

Can you explain to me why you think you are so much smarter than me?

All I ever hear is how much more Superior you are. Why are you better than Trump supporters?
I would never assert that I am smarter. I too like to tell whoppers, but I think you've got me beat there. Maintaining a running narrative of lies for Donald Trump is quite a feat, although you undoubtedly pull a number of talking points off of the QAnon site.
I have recently become interested in QANON But nowhere near fluent in that language. I am pretty good at having a running narrative about Trump. It's almost like I think I'm telling the truth. At least you know differently.

I'm playing that we drink the sewer water seems a little bit condescending as if you were smarter than that. But from where I'm sitting, I'm not exactly impressed about what you consume. But I respect you for it anyway. I would have your respect or nothing at all.

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Hagoth
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:16 pm

I watched the video. Talk about being seriously blown out of proportion. Reuters explained it very succinctly, "The poll watcher was turned away, but it was due to a confusion around poll watchers and their assigned locations, not voter fraud, as some posts claim. The man was admitted as a poll watcher at another location."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Cnsl1
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Cnsl1 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:33 am

Something I recently realized... For years, Trump has been masterful at making shit up, or pulling something from a question someone had, and making the question an allegation , and I am not so sure that he even cared whether or not it was true, but realizes that if you allege something long enough and with enough bravado, enough people will buy the bullshit, and some people will even make up more bullshit to support the original bullshit.

Then when it's questioned rationally, and demonstrated incorrect, he's also masterful at not accepting the answer that doesn't benefit him.

I also think he doesn't always pay great attention to details and is quick to stir up contention. As an example, I remember watching him (with my own eyes and ears) in an early covid extended interview. He spoke glowingly about what they were doing to increase the production of PPE's, then introduced some company leaders who were tasked with quickly making and distributing these PPEs to NYC. The guy said, yeah as an example, we usually produce and deliver XX amount (I can't remember the exact figures) to NYC each month and now we're doing XXXX amount. Basically, for any one paying attention, he seemed to be clearly saying, yes Mr President, our company is now responding to the crisis and we're providing more PPEs to NYC.

Then Trump takes back the mic and said something to the effect of, ok folks did you hear that, this is the guy who's making the PPEs and he's saying that he used to deliver XX and now he's delivering XXXX PPE's. I don't know where they're going. He delivers them. Are they going out there backdoor someplace?!

And I'm sitting there watching this thinking, trump's an idiot. They're delivering more cuz you just said NY needed more and you were just bragging about how you got these guys to quickly make and deliver more! And you had the guy get up and tell us, and he told us, yeah we used to deliver XX and now we deliver XXXX.

And NOBODY called him out or corrected him. The news outlets didn't catch it I guess. Idk. The next thing I know, press is asking Gov Cuomo for a statement about Trump accusing NYC of losing the PPEs and Cuomo's first response was kinda like, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. If he's going to accuse me of something tell him to call me, or words to that effect. Then it became a big story, where did all the PPEs go?! Cuz Trump delivered them and you bastards either stole them or lost them. Again, people had to spend time showing everyone there are no missing PPE's, we just need a crap ton of them right now and please yes will you send some more even. All started cuz Trump either didn't pay attention or likes to stir up controversy or both.

So, the same with other issues as well. The vote was rigged. Obviously millions of people do not need evidence to believe it. They believe him and that's enough. He just needs to create doubt, throw some red herrings and straw men here and there. And that's what they are.

It's pretty obvious to me that as smart as I am--and I'm not saying I'm the smartest person in the room, but I am believing I'm smarter or at least more learned or rational than those who consume the available information and still think the election was rigged--that I do not have enough information available to me to really know for myself. I have to trust the process, and there is/was a process. WE have to trust a process because none of us really are in the position to see all the evidence.

But there is a process and a system in place to check allegations of such severity. And this is one huge huge massively huge allegation. If the election was rigged, yes that's a big deal and it makes sense that people would be all kinds of pissed.

But, state by state, judge by judge, official by official, these people checked it out. Trump supporters investigated. If there was anything awry, then like I said before, you'd have to believe in this massive conspiracy, which seems very very unlikely.

Then when you hear Trump start to go off the rails in the ranting phone call to GA officials, you see him incite a riot, you see how he's acted this last month, "stable genius" turns into selfish narcissist. It seems for him it's all about him. He followers tell me that he cares so much for this country, but he shows me that he primarily cares about himself, which fits what we've known about him for decades.

Sorry for the long rant. soon quarantine will be over and I can get back to normal life, though as I told my wife the other day.. I'm not sure what normal is anymore. I don't know that there is ever a normal, just one day and the next day, each one different and slowly changing. Like you can drive from one western state to another and when you cross the border, CA looks just like AZ but then pretty soon you're in beach sand.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:38 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:33 am
Something I recently realized... For years, Trump has been masterful at making shit up, or pulling something from a question someone had, and making the question an allegation , and I am not so sure that he even cared whether or not it was true, but realizes that if you allege something long enough and with enough bravado, enough people will buy the bullshit, and some people will even make up more bullshit to support the original bullshit.
We defend that Trump makes shit up. We don't deny it.

One of the main things overlooked in all of this is the time before Trump. When Trump came down the golden escalator, in the angels singing from above, many people were hopeful, some stressnful, some humored, and some desperate.

For many years Trump has had the message that we conservatives resonated with. We knew he was a billionaire playboy. But we needed someone outside of the establishment. I was not on board at first. I agreed with some of my friends that he was a representation of American racism. But as I look into it I realize how silly that was.

https://www.facebook.com/10004958403212 ... 285518738/

Here is an undercover video of the woman who was just arrested in Texas. She was working for the DNC. But she had both Democrat and Republican judges and representatives working for her.

This video is just one person. These kind of people are everywhere in the United States. This is a big business.

In this video they are talking about 5,000 maybe 10,000 votes. That doesn't seem like a lot in a presidential election. But in a small town or even a decent size city that's enough to throw the vote one way or another. This is why it is so frustrating that when we are winning at the 11th hour and then a bunch of votes come in and throw the vote the other direction by just a few votes.

This was an undercover video sting. But I have actually seen videos of where the person themselves, not showing themselves, use the camera to document what they did and how they got their votes. They treat their voters almost like cattle. They will have backyard parties and gatherings where the person will ensure that the person in question will vote the way they ask at some point. They are not always open about what they are doing. They manipulate people but they can guarantee to the buyer that a vote will go a certain direction. Sometimes they help people fill out their ballot and even turn it one way or another.

This whole system is corrupt. It is designed for loopholes and weaknesses for games like this. As far as I am concerned Trump can tell me about his walk across the rainbow Bridge and back and I don't care. He is doing the things he promised. You can go to promiseskept.com to get a hint of what I'm talking about.

He has done so many things that other presidents promised but never did. He is keeping the important promises. He can claim to be God's gift to jobs, and the media can call him a liar, and I don't care. Because he is God's gift to jobs.

Added:
I have come to trust that Trump is actually one of the most honest presidents I think we have ever had. I have seen him lie but I think it was in the interest of national security.

But all of those so-called lies that the media claims he told were based on real information. It doesn't always mean that the information was right or thoroughly investigated.

The governor of New York and the mayor of New York City both have a deep and obvious hatred for Donald Trump. He bent over backwards to give them what they needed if they still complain and hate. But one of the things that did come up was that an investigator found almost 3,600 ventilators put away into storage. This was at a time that everyone was clamoring for some.

Trump brought this sort of thing up. The media called him a liar. Of course Donald Trump wasn't himself in a warehouse in New York investigating this. He got this information from somebody else.

What I have found, is it if Donald Trump claimed it to be so that there was something to back it up. It was never the mainstream media. He claimed things that his supporters would then investigate and find to be true. The other side, mainstream media, simply reported that he lied once again.

I have never caught Donald Trump in a lie. And I have asked hundreds of people to show me where he lied. Not a single one have produced a lie. There are things that are misunderstandings or things that were said in a way that allowed for being wrong. One such mistake might have been I think I was the most covered person on Time magazine. Turns out that that wasn't true. There was another, Richard Nixon that had more pictures on the cover of Time magazine. He was only second. He didn't state it as a fact. He stated it as an opinion that he believed.

Michigan man of the year. It was sort of a funny misunderstanding to me. He was given some awards or gifts in Michigan for all of the work that he had done and bringing jobs. I don't know exactly what was said but he got the impression that he was being named Michigan man of the year. There is no Michigan man of the year. He is a rockstar billionaire from New York I can forgive if he got that confused. But the gift and the award that he was relating to was real Even if misunderstood. This does not rise to the high crime of lying such as Richard Blumenthal who claimed to be a veteran from Vietnam. The man was never there.
Last edited by SaidNobody on Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:05 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:16 pm
I watched the video. Talk about being seriously blown out of proportion. Reuters explained it very succinctly, "The poll watcher was turned away, but it was due to a confusion around poll watchers and their assigned locations, not voter fraud, as some posts claim. The man was admitted as a poll watcher at another location."
I found the video that you were talking about. There were a couple of versions of it. One version the guy was being turned away at the door and was saying that he needed to be in there. Later a longer version of it I guess explain why it was wrong.

However, I found at least seven or eight other videos on a pretty narrow search about other people in the counting room claiming that they were observing fraud or not being allowed to observe. I was looking for one particular video that I could not find where a woman and I think Wisconsin was explaining how her and almost a hundred other observers were being ejected from the counting room.

I know you don't want to believe this. So me trying to explain it is relatively irrelevant. I have seen it and I believe it. I wasn't asking anyone else to simply believe this stuff, I wanted an investigation. Those investigations have been blocked or denied. There has been two investigations that have come out and both show the degree of fraud that I have been talking about. But the states have already certified their votes and are not going to change their minds.

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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:20 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:05 am
I know you don't want to believe this. So me trying to explain it is relatively irrelevant. I have seen it and I believe it. I wasn't asking anyone else to simply believe this stuff, I wanted an investigation. Those investigations have been blocked or denied. There has been two investigations that have come out and both show the degree of fraud that I have been talking about. But the states have already certified their votes and are not going to change their minds.
And this is where we are left, frankly. Here's the only problem I have with what you are saying, and you've said it in one of your earlier posts too. You and other Trump supporters say you just want your voice heard, and you want an "investigation" into your claims of election fraud. And that is what Democrats, the courts, the DOJ and DHS are denying Trump and Trump supporters like you. That's fair.

I would argue, however, at least for someone like me who has spent countless hours listening and reading Trump's claims of election fraud, that I have heard you and others like you. I just think the claims of election fraud have zero merit. They are all based on hearsay, speculation and loony conspiracy theories, and they need no investigation, because they have zero merit. Again, you have your right to believe what you will, and nobody here (I think) is rejecting your right to believe in election fraud. I'm simply rejecting that Trump's claims of election fraud are correct, as I have seen no SOLID evidence that there was any. A conclusion, I believe, shared by most people in power, EXCEPT Trump and his supporters.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:07 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:20 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:05 am
I know you don't want to believe this. So me trying to explain it is relatively irrelevant. I have seen it and I believe it. I wasn't asking anyone else to simply believe this stuff, I wanted an investigation. Those investigations have been blocked or denied. There has been two investigations that have come out and both show the degree of fraud that I have been talking about. But the states have already certified their votes and are not going to change their minds.
And this is where we are left, frankly. Here's the only problem I have with what you are saying, and you've said it in one of your earlier posts too. You and other Trump supporters say you just want your voice heard, and you want an "investigation" into your claims of election fraud. And that is what Democrats, the courts, the DOJ and DHS are denying Trump and Trump supporters like you. That's fair.

I would argue, however, at least for someone like me who has spent countless hours listening and reading Trump's claims of election fraud, that I have heard you and others like you. I just think the claims of election fraud have zero merit. They are all based on hearsay, speculation and loony conspiracy theories, and they need no investigation, because they have zero merit. Again, you have your right to believe what you will, and nobody here (I think) is rejecting your right to believe in election fraud. I'm simply rejecting that Trump's claims of election fraud are correct, as I have seen no SOLID evidence that there was any. A conclusion, I believe, shared by most people in power, EXCEPT Trump and his supporters.
Okay. The moment of truth. One of my biggest problems with people like you is that you don't have enough conspiracies. Conspiracies are the belief and investigation into an idea beyond your control or understanding with the belief that it affects your life. Liberals all think they know what is going on. Evil in the world? Of course, it's always been the Trump supporters. Racism? Everyone knows that Trump invented racism. Inequality? Obviously it's the rich people stealing all the money from the poor people.

If you have studied hundreds of hours of Trump statements and claims of fraud There can be only one conclusion. You are not suspicious enough of your fellow man.

My belief in voter fraud started with a conspiracy many years ago. Almost every election that word comes up. And the media is quick to come forward with all of the statistics about how there has never been a significant voter fraud case.

I've said before, I used to like NPR. But I would watch events on C-SPAN and then hear them on NPR and they had been completely distorted it. The media lies. I have caught them so many times it is disgusting. I won't even turn the channels on anymore.

But wait! Who told me that there was no voter fraud? The media? But if they lie.....

Most often when you get a video that confirms a conspiracy it is not professional quality. Someone just snuck it out or caught it by accident. When you hear it on the evening news it is all put together in a pretty package. The idea is clear and if not the anchor or commentator will make it so.

But just because they give you an interpretation doesn't mean it's true. Like the whole Trump statement of "good people on both sides." The media took that and went for the home run. They never let up.

Joe Biden once said that he had, "assembled the best voter fraud team in history." He has made many gaffes but that one was a little bit hard to swallow. I say it definitely looked true but I don't think we over killed it because it could have been a mistake.

Things beyond our knowing are happening. I think any belief that they're not is arrogance and ignorance. I don't know them all. Probably don't know a fraction. But the spiritual signs are there. Like, the CIA has way too much power and they are way too quiet. What are they doing? Who are they messing with? During Trump's administration the FBI has been almost entirely silent. There is a disturbance at the Capitol building and all of a sudden they are dominating the airwaves. Why? If they were laying low until Trump was out of office I consider that an act of treason.

I've said many times, the thing observed matters not so much as the observer. I can understand why you don't see the fraud. I wish you understood why I can. And I hope that your understanding, should you ever get it, isn't, "he is simply insane. "

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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:26 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:07 am

I've said before, I used to like NPR. But I would watch events on C-SPAN and then hear them on NPR and they had been completely distorted it. The media lies. I have caught them so many times it is disgusting. I won't even turn the channels on anymore.

But wait! Who told me that there was no voter fraud? The media? But if they lie.....
This is the only problem I have with what you have said. I'm not getting my information from the media, as you assume. In fact, I agree that the media tends to distort the truth. Sis M's hatred of Trump comes from watching CNN, which constantly harps on the guy. Whereas my disdain for Trump comes from the things he himself says and has written on Twitter - to me, he's a malignant narcissist, and I know this from being raised by one.

So I would suggest that you read my previous posting again - I've actually read the 270 page Kraken 2.0, I watched all five election fraud hearings, the 2 in Georgia, and the ones in Arizona, Michigan and in your home state. I've actually read all of the affidavits produced, and all of the court decisions relating to election fraud. I've listened to Rudy Giuilani speak so much that my own hair dye is running down my face. I'm getting my information right from the horses' mouth, so to speak. And it is simply not credible, when it comes to evidence. None of it is. It's all speculation and hearsay, and stretches the bounds of reality. But I respect your right to believe otherwise. It's just impossible for me, when I've analyzed and weighed what the evidence is.

Again, it all comes down to Occam's razor vs. the Trumpian pretzel. Either it's the simple, logical explanation, that Trump simply lost the election, or you have to believe that the entire electoral apparatus in the swing states, the courts, GOP governors in Arizona and Georgia, the DOJ, the DHS, the media, SCOTUS, the VP and other lawmakers are all involved in this massive conspiracy to overthrow Donald Trump. I just can't believe in the latter, it just stretches the bounds of credulity into an alternate reality. Sorry.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:45 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:26 am
Sorry.
You seem pretty well informed. Actually I did not watch all of those things. I tried to, but they seem like farces in their own way. They seem like sideshows.

Let's start with some of the hard evidence.

Explain to me the bellwether counties?

Why was Trump winning going to bed that night, but at 3:00 in the morning at specifically five locations millions of votes came in. They were the five controlled by Democrats and change the trend that was going on.

How did Trump win 83% of the counties in the United States but still lost by 10 million votes?

How did Republicans win every toss-up seat somehow still lost their president?

The old axiom: enthusiasm wins elections. I don't even have to explain this.

I know that none of these is hard evidence of fraud. By themselves anyone might be possible. But altogether and among many others, it is sort of like one in 15 quadrillion chance that Joe Biden won. I admit, I did not run those stats myself.

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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:02 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:45 am
Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:26 am
Sorry.
You seem pretty well informed. Actually I did not watch all of those things. I tried to, but they seem like farces in their own way. They seem like sideshows.

Let's start with some of the hard evidence.

Explain to me the bellwether counties?

Why was Trump winning going to bed that night, but at 3:00 in the morning at specifically five locations millions of votes came in. They were the five controlled by Democrats and change the trend that was going on.

How did Trump win 83% of the counties in the United States but still lost by 10 million votes?

How did Republicans win every toss-up seat somehow still lost their president?

The old axiom: enthusiasm wins elections. I don't even have to explain this.

I know that none of these is hard evidence of fraud. By themselves anyone might be possible. But altogether and among many others, it is sort of like one in 15 quadrillion chance that Joe Biden won. I admit, I did not run those stats myself.
A lot of this is easily explained. The bellwether counties - what does it matter? It's the same claim that Trump made that no other candidate won Florida, Iowa, Ohio and Texas and lost the election. So what? How is this evidence? Biden got 306 electoral college votes, it doesn't matter how he got them. I would make the same argument about Clinton winning the popular vote in 2016, yet losing the election. That was easy to explain too. Trump simply got the electoral college votes he needed. It didn't matter where Trump got them then, it doesn't matter where Biden got them now.

The early morning vote surge is also easy to explain - the swing states all had rules that said mail in votes could only be counted after in person votes were counted. Since you had Trump slamming mail in votes and calling on his followers to vote in person, it stands to reason that most mail in votes were for Biden. So when they started counting mail in votes early in the morning, they were for Biden. Pretty simple.

You do know, that over half of the American population live in only 143 counties, right? And Biden won most of his votes in the cities? And most of those cities/counties are in California, where Trump got skewered? Take a look for yourself:

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/ ... nties.html

I know (anecdotally of course) some Republicans, including my son in law, that voted Republican everywhere else, but couldn't stand Trump so they voted for Biden. And while the Republicans made gains in the House and Senate, they still ultimately lost both. So I'm not sure that means anything. It's the same for the enthusiasm argument - just because there are enthusiastic Trump supporters, doesn't mean that all Trump votes were enthusiastic Trump votes. Or maybe people voted for Biden because they hated Trump? Or any number of reasons that don't add up to anything, not the least that there was widespread voter fraud as a result.

Again, you can still believe these things, but they are not "evidence."
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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