Non-religious God

[RubinHighlander]

I've found it's just okay to be and to love and to do good things just because.

Just be-cause? Not exactly a solid explanation of "cause."

God is the effort to explain cause. Be-cause is God.

First off, Fluff - thanks for the literal laughs out loud this morning.

Yes, God and religion is something man made up to explain things he could not otherwise explain; it's the science of the gaps, it's the imaginary friend who must be behind it all. I admit to an apathetic, atheistic and often pessimistic view toward all man-made explanations for things like consciousness, the soul, reality, etc. But there is a side of me that is so overwhelmed by the evolutionary existence of the universe and the fact we are here contemplating it. Just the fact it's expanding in all directions exponentially faster than the speed of light speaks to a beginning. That is where I place any faith I sometimes have, in some type of power that may have started the process. It took me a long time to get to a place where I was okay in the unknown and willing to wait for scientific observation to prove out the facts of existence. The 'okay' part still has it's moments of great desire to know, but I've embraced that as part of my existence and it does not have to have some other human fill that gap with pseudoscience or religious explanation. I've been duped enough to this point in my life that I have called BS on those people. I'm free to take the ideas of poets, prophets, fools and scientists and form my own opinions...although the prophets are no longer in that list.

So my imaginary friend is no longer a white haired old man who thinks some of his kids are special and some are not and only .02% of them currently know all the truth. My imaginary friend is someone I don't know much about, just someone or thing that's way out there at the beginning of the singularity that kicked off the existence of this universe and the resulting small blue speck of dust we call home.

Some folks have to fill the gaps because it's just more comfortable for them to have a very real imaginary friend. They like being told what to do by a parental figure, they like authority and structure for their life, that they have it pretty much figured out. They like to feel they know there is no end when it comes to death, that their loved ones are waiting for them. I'm fine with that as long as they don't tell me I MUST have that imaginary friend as well and pretend they are more special than everyone else because they claim to know that friend and others don't.

And after death, if my consciousness survives and I meet a white haired old man who tells me I was wrong and JS or some other religion was right. If that old man or his son condemns me for using my brain to look at all the information and situations I was given to make choices about what I chose to believe in and how I lived my life, I will curse them all and tell them they are not Gods worthy worship; throw me into the black hole.

Right now I'm not holding my breath, I'm living life with gratitude for every day because it may be my last and this may be it; no life after death. Some will say what's the harm in living the LDS way, isn't that safer, just in case it is right? I've tried it their way, for over 40 years, that's not happiness and that ain't living IMHO! At best, I'm going to stick with Snuffy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opx8iDvR_nU

[SaidNobody]

I'm not talking ABOUT the imaginary friend. Whether the imaginary friend is Snuffles or sky daddy, it doesn't matter.

Consciousness is some crazy stuff and it doesn't like to be alone. You mentioned gratitude, but grateful to whom? Your mind wants to be thankful, knows the benefits of being thankful.

All things are relative. But thankfulness requires a third party.

[wtfluff]

All things are relative. But thankfulness requires a third party.

Why?

[SaidNobody]

All things are relative. But thankfulness requires a third party.

Why?

If you get yourself drink, you usually don't thank yourself. If you are grateful THAT YOU CAN get a drink, you are usually thankful to beings and circumstances that you cannot control.

[wtfluff]

All things are relative. But thankfulness requires a third party.

Why?

If you get yourself drink, you usually don't thank yourself. If you are grateful THAT YOU CAN get a drink, you are usually thankful to beings and circumstances that you cannot control.

Ah. So you are thankful to your imagination?

[SaidNobody]

Ah. So you are thankful to your imagination?

Yes.

And that sort of where the automated part comes in. Say you are grateful for the water, and you thank god/nobody. Your mind works out what is sacred, holy, and important. That is why we have things are sacred, holy, and important.

Of course, different cultures are thankful for different things. Like Anglo-Saxon might thankful for the electricity, pipes, and indoor pumping. Native Americans might be thankful to the river, mother earth, father sky, etc.

Either way, our gratitude creates a deeper respect for what brings us the water.

In turn, the imagination supports and protects the systems we are grateful for.

[wtfluff]

Ah. So you are thankful to your imagination?

Yes.

And that sort of where the automated part comes in. Say you are grateful for the water, and you thank god/nobody. Your mind works out what is sacred, holy, and important. That is why we have things are sacred, holy, and important.

Of course, different cultures are thankful for different things. Like Anglo-Saxon might thankful for the electricity, pipes, and indoor pumping. Native Americans might be thankful to the river, mother earth, father sky, etc.

Either way, our gratitude creates a deeper respect for what brings us the water.

In turn, the imagination supports and protects the systems we are grateful for.

Wow.

Honestly, I can't imagine how you come up with this schtuff...

SPG FTW!

[SaidNobody]

SPG FTW!

Purely your imagination, I'm sure.

I've been told, by those that claim to know, that to come up such wonderful ideas, one must be coping with a lot. But, it's good times, usually.

[Give It Time]

All things are relative. But thankfulness requires a third party.

Why?

I read something recently that I thought was very interesting and I have started implementing it. The question was

When was the last time you thanked yourself?

I thought about that and I don't think I ever have.

I started thanking myself. It was weird, at first. When I'm feeling grateful, I'm used to thanking some omnipresence and I still do, but now I also thank myself. Sometimes, I thank just myself.

Thank you, GIT, for making yourself a priority and just going on vacation, regardless of time and money.

Thank you, GIT, for not panicking when you didn't know where you were on that mountain road, but used reason and logic (this is a road, it will connect me to a freeway or a town eventually) to get yourself safely over Independence Pass when Google maps led you astray.

You get the idea. Some omnipresent force could have whispered to me the idea and the reason and logic, but I am the one who listened and acted and that deserves some credit.

When we thank ourselves, no task is truly thankless. I've found I rely less on the recognition of others and I feel less of a martyr.

So, SaidNobody, I highly recommend giving yourself some credit and some gratitude.

[SaidNobody]

All things are relative. But thankfulness requires a third party.

Why?

I read something recently that I thought was very interesting and I have started implementing it. The question was

When was the last time you thanked yourself?

I thought about that and I don't think I ever have.

I started thanking myself. It was weird, at first. When I'm feeling grateful, I'm used to thanking some omnipresence and I still do, but now I also thank myself. Sometimes, I thank just myself.

Thank you, GIT, for making yourself a priority and just going on vacation, regardless of time and money.

Thank you, GIT, for not panicking when you didn't know where you were on that mountain road, but used reason and logic (this is a road, it will connect me to a freeway or a town eventually) to get yourself safely over Independence Pass when Google maps led you astray.

You get the idea. Some omnipresent force could have whispered to me the idea and the reason and logic, but I am the one who listened and acted and that deserves some credit.

When we thank ourselves, no task is truly thankless. I've found I rely less on the recognition of others and I feel less of a martyr.

So, SaidNobody, I highly recommend giving yourself some credit and some gratitude.

GIT, I appreciate your point and I think it supports what I am saying. Perhaps it is too easy, but take the drink of water. You probably wouldn't thank yourself for getting the drink. But you might thank yourself for having the wisdom, strength, courage, technology, etc, to get a drink.

Part of my point here is that humans have a rather unique talent. They have the brain/mind space to think of themselves in the third person. No other animal that we know other will sit and stew about their performance yesterday or about life after death. In a way, we begin to acknowledge ourselves as a third party.

Like your calm on the mountain road. You know full well there are features and functions about yourself that you don't fully control. And so you realize that all of social etiquette you learned in Sunday school can be applied to yourself. Your subconscious mind is you, but it is also like a third party. You body is like a horse you ride. It can turn on you almost like a wild horse if you disrespect it.

At first, we think of God as someone outside of us. Then we slowly realise that we are God. But that consciousness shift takes time. How we treat ourselves and our subconscious becomes our salvation. But, the conscious mind is naturally too arrogant. We are like young people that think that we are invincible.

The two great commandments.
Love the Lord with all your heart.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

When you realize that the systems inside you, that gives you consciousness, are the Lord, it starts to make more sense. As a "child of God" you have the ability take control of all of the functions your conscious. But, only through love and respect, to yourself (in the third person.)

When you can address trauma of your own childhood like you would help a suffering child you begin to develop a relationship with the infinite mind that is you. Until then, you are kept out of the very processes that are you. It is like the IT department keeping people out of the server room and securing all software access.

[Give It Time]

I don't have a problem with what you've written, here. I just don't agree with you fully. it's something I'm still working out, myself, and am not ready to discuss.

[SaidNobody]

I don't have a problem with what you've written, here. I just don't agree with you fully. it's something I'm still working out, myself, and am not ready to discuss.

I don't agree with me fully, so no offense taken. I know I am wrong, just as my ancestors were wrong.

But, I think that acknowledging God as a big mystical thing inside us, inside of everything, is a step in the right direction.

[SaidNobody]

In spiritual circles, there is talk of dimensions. Take for example the fourth dimension, which Einstein labeled as time. We are aware of time. Many animals are not. Even though dogs can remember anything and everything in their life, they are not sure when it happens. They have an attention span of about 30 seconds. Pretty much everything else Blends together as things that just happened and they are not sure when.

As humans we can see far into the future and look far into the past. Anyway, this is a manifestation of 4th dimensional thinking. We can see things on a timeline and make plans according to things that happened and predict what will happen. Though we are not perfect at this we are pretty good and are getting better. So in this sense we are 4th dimensional beings. Meaning that we can "BE" in the fourth dimension.

Some believe that our subconscious is not fourth-dimensional. What happens is something that just happens and it really doesn't know when it happened. That is why a trauma in our childhood can affect our adult life.

Having this perception of fourth dimension, adds a richness to our life. Some Believe The Fifth Dimension is an emotional dimension. The ability to feel the feelings of another person through empathy also adds a dimension to our consciousness. These are experiences that do not happen in the normal 3D space of our world.

There are relationships that can only exist in our imagination and in our mind. And because we can experience them we can consider them real. They might not have mass that can be measured by modern science, but they do have influence on the world. Much of the universe can exist in our imaginations. In fact I believe that it does.

[Give It Time]

As far as God being within yourself, I thought you might like this story.

I wasn't able to find an example online, so I will be transferring by hand and abbreviating. I get this from The Tao Of Success by Derek Lin.

There's an old Chinese folktale that a devout Buddhist once asked Guanyin, the Boddhisatva of Mercy, to whom she prayed. Guanyin replied that she prayed to Guanyin. The Buddhist inquired why. Guanyin replied that enlightenment and obtaining Buddha nature resides within all of us and that it makes sense to pray to our Buddha nature.

The author further explained the fable, thusly. Regardless of religion, when we pray, we make a number of assumptions.

1. A deity exists to hear the prayer. If a deity didn't exist, the prayer would go to no one and be pointless.

2. The deity can hear us. If the deity exists, but can't hear us, the prayers do no good (incidentally, my father used to yell his prayers, it was kind of hilarious).

3. The deity is actually listening (when I was having my faith crisis, images of HF being distracted by a passing skirt kept popping into my mind)

4. We assume the deity cares about our problems. (Line from The Island. You know how you want something really badly and you pray really hard for it? God's the one who ignores you.)

5. We assume the deity wants to help. What if the deity wants events to unfold naturally?

6. We assume the deity's help will be timely. (I've had several recent examples where I did receive help, but it was only after I had essentially solved the problem, myself).

In praying to your own Buddha nature (yourself, really, and it's weird at first), this is what happens:

1. Do you exist? Yes.

2. Can you hear yourself? Yes.

3. Are you listening to yourself? Yes.

4. Do you care about your own problems? Yes, you care very much.

5. Will you do something to help yourself? Entirely up to you, but at least it's a very strong possibility for personal accountability.

6. Will you help yourself in a timely manner? Again, up to you.

I will even throw in a bonus one the author didn't include. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate prayers, especially when people are distant, but I got so I really hated the phrase, "I'll pray for you" during the phase of my life when I needed help in getting free and the person I was talking to didn't want to give the help, but didn't want to lose the relationship or be seen as the bad guy. It basically saying they won't be helping me. Society has been pointing put the lameness of this statement with the Las Vegas shootings.

Anyway, number 7. If a person says they'll pray for you and they are praying to themselves, it puts the onus on them to provide the help. I've heard a few sermons, lately, that say if you feel a desire to pray that help will be provided in a situation, that means you need to be the one to provide that help. Essentially, the same idea, but still hoping a deity will step in and save the day.

[SaidNobody]

Anyway, number 7. If a person says they'll pray for you and they are praying to themselves, it puts the onus on them to provide the help. I've heard a few sermons, lately, that say if you feel a desire to pray that help will be provided in a situation, that means you need to be the one to provide that help. Essentially, the same idea, but still hoping a deity will step in and save the day.

Quan Yin is a favorite of mine. The Mother Mary of the east.

I agree with 1-6.

But 7, I think you underestimate life. You see, you aren't just you, you are part of a bigger life form, something living on earth for perhaps 4 billion years.

The are thousands of stories of ESP and the like, sometimes random communication across space. M Theory is still a mysterious reality.

There is plenty of room for your prayer to go deeper and further.

But God works through channels. If you are dying in the desert and pray, someone might hear. Someone might not. There are thousands of "I just had a feeling to come over here" stories. Or a mother wakes in the night with the feeling a child is in trouble.

If help can get to you, if someone can hear, then help will come.

But our culture is so noisy, our senses so numb, not many folks listening to the wind.

[Give It Time]

Anyway, number 7. If a person says they'll pray for you and they are praying to themselves, it puts the onus on them to provide the help. I've heard a few sermons, lately, that say if you feel a desire to pray that help will be provided in a situation, that means you need to be the one to provide that help. Essentially, the same idea, but still hoping a deity will step in and save the day.

Quan Yin is a favorite of mine. The Mother Mary of the east.

I agree with 1-6.

But 7, I think you underestimate life. You see, you aren't just you, you are part of a bigger life form, something living on earth for perhaps 4 billion years.

The are thousands of stories of ESP and the like, sometimes random communication across space. M Theory is still a mysterious reality.

There is plenty of room for your prayer to go deeper and further.

But God works through channels. If you are dying in the desert and pray, someone might hear. Someone might not. There are thousands of "I just had a feeling to come over here" stories. Or a mother wakes in the night with the feeling a child is in trouble.

If help can get to you, if someone can hear, then help will come.

But our culture is so noisy, our senses so numb, not many folks listening to the wind.

I do believe in communications happening on a "vibrational" level, but having been the one in dire need of help, praying for that help for years and receiving nothing, that's not much comfort at this time. Though I do believe some people enjoy that. I'll just leave that, for now.

[SaidNobody]

I do believe in communications happening on a "vibrational" level, but having been the one in dire need of help, praying for that help for years and receiving nothing, that's not much comfort at this time. Though I do believe some people enjoy that. I'll just leave that, for now.

There is a common, old meme.

It was the foot prints in the sand. "Lord, When I needed you most, there were only one set of prints in the sand. Later, I found out they were yours, and that you carried me." Err, something liked that.

Life isn't a promise, it's an opportunity. It's a chance.

What do you want in life? Did you want the truth and the world seemed fall apart?

I used to pray for strength, only to get beaten day after day. I'd pray courage only to be afraid of everything.

Then one day I realized that people got strong by overcoming obstacles, by fighting opposition. That courage came from confronting fears. That truth dissolves illusions.

I'm stronger, braver, and more aware. But, I am really careful how I pray now.

[Give It Time]

I had just found out and accepted the truth of how my mother died. That my father had had a hand in it. I was in terrible pain. I was drowning and knew no way of reaching for a life preserver that didn't alienate the poor soul that was stuck listening to my angst.

They could see I was alone. They could see I was in pain.

Nothing.

I heard stories of sisters "getting a feeling" so-and-so needed a friend. I prayed and prayed for someone to get that kind of prompting about me. No one did.

I could have decided God didn't exist or care for me, but neither of those rang true for me. I believed in a Heavenly Father and He did love me, even though He was too busy having sex to pay much attention to my prayers (those thoughts on that list were during this time). I decided, after much prayer, Heavenly Father must want me to bootstrap this and that's exactly what I did. In seeking answers and comfort, the answers and comfort led me right out of my testimony.

I do believe Heavenly Father wanted it to happen, but there's still pain of having been in that very difficult period, praying for help and comfort and coming up dry. Every time.

You know how a person loses their testimony and after they've gone through the process of unpacking and examining that baggage, they realise the Word of Wisdom is bonk? Then they research drinking something like coffee and get up the courage to try it, then they start drinking it regularly in secret. Then, they finally get tired of this aspect of inaunthenticity and stop hiding the coffee drinking. Then, they get tired of the side eye and come out as not believing. The TBM has only seen the coffee and the disaffection and figures the disaffection is due to a desire to sin. The TBM wasn't aware during the period of the blinders falling and accompanying anguish. By the time most TBMs have any inkling, the faith crisis has pretty much run its course and the disaffected person is feeling strong enough to take on the believers in his/her life. What those believers don't realize when the news is first broached with the words, "I have doubts" is the testimony is actually gone and the TBM is getting the news broken to them gently.

That's a very long way to say, I finally did get people reaching out about three years after most of the healing had taken place. They were treating me as if I was at the moment of accute pain, when I was much farther along on the path of healing. I get the idea from comments that they thought all I need to do is forgive my father and I'll get over this divorce foolishness and we can all get back to life. One day my VT had an epiphany. She asked me how long ago my father had died. I told her. She said that was a long time ago, wasn't it? I confirmed it was. She said, "you're over it, aren't you? " I said that I was. She had caught on that they were all wasting their time trying to save my marriage. Instead of apologizing for not listening to me all these years, she just sat there, disgusted. I don't know why. As my VT, it is my opinion she is the one who was most aware of the situation and the one who actually made me feel more alone.

SN, it's all just a tsunami, wrapped in hurricane, dipped in a tornado under the bridge, by now. From my ward it's been lot's of too little, too late. I realize Mormons and humans and Mormon humans are imperfect and I do believe in those impressions. I have a rather stunning story of my getting one for a friend. In hindsight, I do believe that lack of support was spirit led. I do believe I needed to lose my testimony. My former bishop was a real asshat about the divorce and it was very difficult sitting in the congregation listening to speaker after speaker saying that all the bishop's decisions were guided by the spirit. Then, one day, I decided to follow that thought. If my bishop is perfectly fine with a fraud committing, abandoning, deadbeat abuser, then may be his decisions are guided by the spirit to let me know the church isn't the place for me.

Still, an inconvenient and painful truth to face. So, while I get what you're saying and I agree with you. Sometimes, how it plays out in people's lives is incredibly devastating. Perhaps I'll be able to smile about the concept in about a decade.

[Give It Time]

Addendum to the above.

Sai Weng Loses Horse is one of my favorite stories. I do invoke it in this particular case.

[Give It Time]

I thought of this, last night, when I was getting ready for bed.

I've been telling this story for a very long time and it finally occurred to me that I've never explained why I didn't visit with the bishop during that painful time. So, this post is actually for any TBM/COB lurkers, out there.

Before we moved into our present ward, my father shafted my ex and me on a business deal. That business deal was the reason we moved to Utah. We put everything on the line for him and he shafted us. It really caught us off guard, because my father had had a long-standing reputation as an honorable man while my mother was living. In fact, my family didn't believe us because of this reputation. It was bad enough that moving was really the right thing to do. It tore me apart. It estranged me from my entire family

So, we moved twice in three months. The first got us to Utah and the second to this particular location. I was truly baffled and mystified by the whole situation. I was broken hearted that I'd lost my family. I had found that when I told my friends, they incredulously asked me why a father would shaft his own daughter and grandchildren. I didn't understand about narcissism and what it looks like, so I couldn't explain, but I don't think that would have helped. So, I lost a lot of friends, too. These were the conditions in place when I moved into my present ward. When people asked the run-of-the-mill question of what brought us to the area, I honestly couldn't answer. So, there was this weirdness about me when we first moved in and it's a weirdness that has never had an opportunity to lift. Literally, every time I see a possibility to actually have a decent relationship with my ward, something happens to ruin it.

However, during the early days of our moving here, I did go to see my Bishop about this, because I was TBM. That's what you do. Now, this bishop was a kind man. I consider him a Mormon Mr. Rogers. I told him my story and his response to me was something I respect, to this day. He said the problem was beyond his capability, had no advice and the only thing he could say was he was sorry that it happened.

After the time that I found out about my father's hand in my mother's death, this bishop did notice. He started to come toward me to talk, but I think he thought better of it and stopped. Well, I don't know his thought process, but he changed his mind about coming to talk to me. I appreciated and didn't judge that moment harshly. I think he was trying to be respectful. To me, it was nice to know he was willing to listen. I didn't go see him, because if the previous situation had been beyond his capability, the present one certainly would. He had owned his limitations. I gave myself the option to talk to him, but knew this problem would be something for which he wouldn't be able to give comfort.

So, there it is, TBM lurkers. It wasn't because of any evil feminist leanings. It was because I had a bishop with the integrity to admit a problem was too big for him.