NOM

Lately, being without a church, I have been pondering the connection between God and Church. God and Religion. Does one need a religion to believe in God? What is God's power and influence outside of a organized religion?

In some groups, (not to give it away) they talk of "A God of our understanding." And this God actually works for many people. It's not predefined or handed down as scripture. In fact, many people take years and years to develop a God of their Understanding.

Of course, God varies from a vague idea to an all powerful authority.

I see God pretty much like all of the ideas of God put together and much, much, much more. But no one ideal of God has yet pleased me, but I do believe that there is a God and conscious realms beyond our senses.

I put this post in the MISC section, because, I'm curious about non-religious ideas of who/what God is. I used to think that I could convert an atheist to believe in God, but. . . . . yeah, that was my ass talking.

Beginning Fact: Humans are the only animals that evolved believing in God. They don't have the biggest brains, nor live the longest lives, but they are king, (if you exclude the insect kingdom.)

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Lately, being without a church, I have been pondering the connection between God and Church. God and Religion. Does one need a religion to believe in God? What is God's power and influence outside of a organized religion?

You don't need a religion to believe in God(s). Formal proofs about God from believers and logicians rarely try to define God precisely which allows a huge amount of variance in what any person could believe about God. There are a few believers in my life that know about my profound lack of belief. They still try to have conversations with me about the blessings and coincidences that God put in their life. I can happily acknowledge their blessings coming from some sort of divine presence. I can assume it is the Flying Spaghetti Monster but I won't tell them that. They really don't want a comprehensive discussion where I could point out all the ways that an omnibenevolent god is not blessing the most deserving among us.

I chuckle whenever someone uses the phrase "doing God's work" when referring to charitable acts of kind people. I agree. Those good souls are doing God's work because it's clear it won't get done if we only leave it up to God alone. But a bunch of kind mortals can do a lot to relieve suffering.

Corsair wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:58 pm

I can happily acknowledge their blessings coming from some sort of divine presence.

So taking this phrase. I think if you actually studied how nature bestows good fortune on people, it might seem random.

However, whether you believe in God or not, I think that many successful people like to "thank lady luck" or "God" or "good fortune" when things go right. The act of acknowledging seems to do something. Sort of like, if you give a gift to a friend. If they receive it without acknowledgement of your kindness or thoughtfulness, it offends you. If they receive it in good grace, the relationship is blessed, both ways.

What if thanking God for blessings is just a way of acknowledging that you received a gift. Even if it isn't from a God, the person acknowledges that they received something. It's good for them, it's an gesture of humility. Some lucky people are not humble, not grateful, and do not consider their "lucky acquisitions" as anything but their due. They might not attribute the gifts from God, but rather assume themselves deserving.

So I might ask, how to does one acknowledge good fortune, blessings, luck, etc, without involving a third entity? Even Lady Luck is a form of God. I know that many people don't believe in luck, or fortune, or whatever, but the true is, some people get it better then others. What non-superstitious tool do we use to justify why we should keep our "gifts" when there isn't any moral or justifiable reason that we deserve them?

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Beginning Fact: Humans are the only animals that evolved believing in God. They don't have the biggest brains, nor live the longest lives, but they are king, (if you exclude the insect kingdom.)

How is this a "Fact"?

Have you spoken to the animals (and insects for that matter) and asked them if the believe in Dog?

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:28 pm

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Beginning Fact: Humans are the only animals that evolved believing in God. They don't have the biggest brains, nor live the longest lives, but they are king, (if you exclude the insect kingdom.)

How is this a "Fact"?

Have you spoken to the animals (and insects for that matter) and asked them if the believe in Dog?

Of course I have. And I have reviewed temple recommends and found no insects or non-humans seeking God's blessings. My dog, of course, has a very high opinion of me, and a lot of trust, but I don't think he really understands that I am the god that I am.

Because getting a temple recommend is the only way to demonstrate belief in Dog?

nibbler wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:34 pm

Because getting a temple recommend is the only way to demonstrate belief in Dog?

It's certified. Nothing else really counts.

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:25 pm

So I might ask, how to does one acknowledge good fortune, blessings, luck, etc, without involving a third entity?

This is an interesting question. While my instinct might be to avoid being "ungrateful" and to acknowledge the areas in which I am fortunate, the very act of realizing my good fortune can in many cases only be in comparison with someone else.

If God or some other force is behind whatever good fortune I might have, said being or force must also be withholding such fortune from someone else, or "cursing" them with the opposite. That seems just as bad as feeling as if I "deserve" any good that I experience. In Bart Ehrman's book God's Problem, he mentions that it was while saying a prayer over a meal that he started to realize the significance of the "problem of evil." If I were to post in that "top five smoking guns" thread, the problem of evil would probably be my number one.

It might simply be that we take up such beliefs and avoid analyzing their implications too much to avoid the idea that everything is random or deterministic. Just a coping mechanism to try to feel as if there is some sort of justice in the universe.

The Aboriginals of Downunder, have gods, but they didn't wait to compare their good fortune to others. They let the spirits know what needed and they started walking. When some poor snake crossed their path, they gave thanks.

They saw the earth/god give and withhold. But it wasn't to compare with others, they all shared the same fate.

I imagine for most of Modern Human's existence on earth, people have held beliefs of powers beyond themselves but did not belong to a formal organization. Perhaps that is religion with a little "r" but it no doubt held true from around 300,000 BC till much later when the world's oldest profession of shamans decided to unionize.

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:28 pm

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Beginning Fact: Humans are the only animals that evolved believing in God. They don't have the biggest brains, nor live the longest lives, but they are king, (if you exclude the insect kingdom.)

How is this a "Fact"?

Have you spoken to the animals (and insects for that matter) and asked them if the believe in Dog?

I believe in Dog! Especially the big fluffy ones!

I've put god all the way back to the Big Bang and into the "I just don't know" category. This has not diminished my gratitude for my existence, but I do not feel obligated to attribute my good fortunes to any god and I don't expect any acknowledgement from any god or the Universe. Honestly I don't think the Universe give a crap as most of life on this planet has been nearly wiped out a couple of times over the Earth's history. I've found it's just okay to be and to love and to do good things just because.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:26 pm

I've found it's just okay to be and to love and to do good things just because.

Just be-cause? Not exactly a solid explanation of "cause."

God is the effort to explain cause. Be-cause is God.

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:54 pm

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:26 pm

I've found it's just okay to be and to love and to do good things just because.

Just be-cause? Not exactly a solid explanation of "cause."

God is the effort to explain cause. Be-cause is God.

But... An imaginary friend in the sky is a "solid explanation of cause"? Human's can't do good without that imaginary friend?

Oh my...

SKY CAKE!!!

Humans must have imaginary friends. That is how the mind is shaped. The mind is shaped with images.

God is the first imaginary friend. God is the first cause.

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Of course, God varies from a vague idea to an all powerful authority.

It is exactly this variance that makes discussion of a generic god nigh on pointless unless a common definition is agreed upon.

Dravin wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 pm

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:03 pm

Of course, God varies from a vague idea to an all powerful authority.

It is exactly this variance that makes discussion of a generic god nigh on pointless unless a common definition is agreed upon.

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:16 pm

Humans must have imaginary friends. That is how the mind is shaped. The mind is shaped with images.

God is the first imaginary friend. God is the first cause.

Well... SaidNobody has admitted that god is simply an imaginary friend, so I'm going to go with Mr. Snuffleupagus as our agreed upon common definition of god.

Yeah, I'm cool with Snuffy as god...

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:00 pm

Well... SaidNobody has admitted that god is simply an imaginary friend, so I'm going to go with Mr. Snuffleupagus as our agreed upon common definition of god.

Yeah, I'm cool with Snuffy as god...

A question.

Did you imagine your imagination or did your imagination imagine you?

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:51 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:00 pm

Well... SaidNobody has admitted that god is simply an imaginary friend, so I'm going to go with Mr. Snuffleupagus as our agreed upon common definition of god.

Yeah, I'm cool with Snuffy as god...

A question.

Did you imagine your imagination or did your imagination imagine you?

My imagination is a figment of Snuffy's imagination.

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:01 am

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:51 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:00 pm

Well... SaidNobody has admitted that god is simply an imaginary friend, so I'm going to go with Mr. Snuffleupagus as our agreed upon common definition of god.

Yeah, I'm cool with Snuffy as god...

A question.

Did you imagine your imagination or did your imagination imagine you?

My imagination is a figment of Snuffy's imagination.

I get this. And Snuffy is a figment of someone else's imagination. I am figment of God's imagination, cause without consciousness, nothing can be imagined.

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:11 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:01 am

SaidNobody wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:51 am

A question.
Did you imagine your imagination or did your imagination imagine you?

My imagination is a figment of Snuffy's imagination.

I get this. And Snuffy is a figment of someone else's imagination. I am figment of God's imagination, cause without consciousness, nothing can be imagined.

Nope, sorry.

Snuffy is eternal, always had been, always will be.