Complicated Family Tree

Chat about a topic supported by books, TED Talks, podcasts, personal experience, philosophies of mankind mingled with humor (shout out to IOT), and maybe we’ll even do a google hangout or conference call once a month.
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Kishkumen
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Complicated Family Tree

Post by Kishkumen » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:05 am

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/grandma ... 44293.html

I'd appreciate some genuine and civil discuourse about this story.

A gay couple gets an invitro fertilization of egg from SIL and sperm from non-blood husband and then the mother/grandma carries and births the baby at age 61.

So much going on here and I'm struggling to wrap my mind around it all. Firstly, congrats to the happy parents, but this seems to be all sorts of unnecessary something to me. It feels like a situation of "just because we can, doesn't mean we should".

Am I way off base for thinking this is bit too much. My gut feeling is - congrats to the happy couple but instead of the crazy risks and expenses associated with something like this, maybe just adopt? We have enough kids in this world with unmet needs, we don't need to make extra babies at this level of cost.

Love is love - terrific. However this seems to be the Philosophies of Love mingled with mad science.

Feel free to shoot me down if I'm being a jerk, but this one is stunning to me.

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Corsair
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Re: Complicated Family Tree

Post by Corsair » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:25 pm

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:05 am
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/grandma ... 44293.html

I'd appreciate some genuine and civil discuourse about this story.
This will very likely get me in trouble, but I think I know the answer. This arises from a deep biological reason that might also be interpreted as "embarrassing" and "prideful". It is widely accepted that every parent loves their own children best. I will fully grant the graciousness of people who adopt children into their family. But this is not the majority and most people really want to raise humans who are biologically related to themselves and also look like themselves to some extent. You can write this off as a primitive and foolish pride, but it simply works for the vast majority of families without requiring any justification. One painfully uncomfortable point, is that the most commonly abused children are those that are from an unmarried mother living with her boyfriend who is not the biological father of the children.

A couple that is overtly planning for, and attempting to have their own, biological children are voting for a future that still contains "them" to some real extent. This includes the gay couple in that news story who have a real sense that they own that child and that this new child owns them. This is "ownership" in the kindest possible interpretation.

Just try asking a couple with a new baby, "why did you have a baby? You could have just adopted!" This question will end up sounding insensitive because it implicitly condemns the parents for valuing their biological child more than some other, random child. Again, I have nothing but respect for families that adopt and foster children. If I were to be accused of loving my own biological children more than others, then I will happily accept that reality and condemnation.

My four children are, in part, manifestations of both myself and my wife. We felt that we had some great traits that could benefit the world be being passed on to others. Certainly there is a lot that can be passed to adopted children through culture and teaching. But we cannot ignore that nature has a place in this, not just nurture. My wife and I literally have skin in the game and it convinced us to sacrifice in ways that remaining childless would not. I can only hope that I would have embraced a wider altruism if we had adopted.

Adoption is great. It just does not spontaneously and consistently produce the kind of altruism and sacrifice in humans that is needed to produce the next generation. I applaud those that make the adopted families work well.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Complicated Family Tree

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:36 pm

My wife and I literally have skin in the game and it convinced us to sacrifice in ways that remaining childless would not.
Hmmm.... I thought you were circumcised, no?

Kish, I think your hung up on the 61 year old host. If she was 21 would it be different in your mind?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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crazyhamster
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Re: Complicated Family Tree

Post by crazyhamster » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:38 pm

One of the things that was of greatest relief to me after I left the church was not having to worry about what people I don't know, whose actions are not harming anyone, are doing. I figure if these folks are all agreeable to the arrangement, I have no issues.

I do expect that for a gay couple, depending on where they live, adoption may not be a realistic option. And I understand that for many couples in general it's not necessarily easy.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Complicated Family Tree

Post by MerrieMiss » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:20 pm

I had difficulty getting pregnant and we looked into adoption through at least three different organizations. It is difficult. It is very invasive. It's also expensive. And it comes with a lot of issues that do not exist when you have your own. I'm sure what this couple did was also expensive, so I don't know how that works out. But it was probably fun and exciting and obviously newsworthy.

I have friends and family members who have adopted and I absolutely believe they love their adopted kids, but there have been some difficulties along the way. For me, the open adoption idea was difficult. And I know that makes me seem petty and insensitive, but I think that the openness can cause some problems. I have one family member who finally reconnected with his birth mother who essentially said, "I thought I got rid of you." It was extremely disappointing and destroyed the self-made identity and fantasy of the "real" mom he'd built up. I've also wondered in a family with several adopted children, how to handle the various differences in open adoption arrangements. For example, Child A from the A family, Child B from the B family, and Child C from the C family. Biological Mom A wants to stay in contact, lots of picture updates, invites to birthdays, etc. Biological Mom B wants to walk away and not have a relationship. Biological Mom C had her child removed by child services and is in and out of rehab but wants the involvement that Bio-Mom A has, even if it is a negative and unstable relationship. How do the kids manage knowing these differences between themselves? I know it doesn't seem like much of an issue when they're 6 months old, but what about when they're ten? Resentfulness, jealousy, blaming their behaviors on their bio parent, feelings of neglect. This was a serious concern of mine and no one ever gave me a good answer to it.

And it isn't fair, but a lot of kids who are available for adoption have a lot of issues. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) was one that we received training on. Children in foster care often come from traumatic backgrounds (and obviously being taken from their homes is traumatic anyway, regardless of the reason). Some of the international adoptions come from places that have a lot of trauma associated with them too. (And surgeries - I had a friend whose child adopted from overseas needed surgery immediately following the adoption.) Many adopted kids receive a lot of therapies that your own kids wouldn't receive because they simply wouldn't have that background. Your own kids may have other issues, but not necessarily FAS, or abuse and neglect and attachment disorders. That is a lot of extra work to take on. And it's expensive too.

I'm not putting down adoption. I think it's a wonderful thing and I love the people in my life who I know because of adoption. And we almost did it. It's just a lot more complicated than people realize.

I can't imagine carrying/having a baby at 61. I had my first in my early thirties and while I am very happy I had kids on the older side of the Mormon spectrum, one of the small regrets I have is realizing how much easier physically it would have been having them ten years earlier.

Kishkumen
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Re: Complicated Family Tree

Post by Kishkumen » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:43 am

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Last edited by Kishkumen on Sat May 25, 2019 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kishkumen
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Re: Complicated Family Tree

Post by Kishkumen » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:51 am

Corsair, RR, MerrieMiss

I really appreciate all of your comments and thoughts. It is a good reminder that adoption is not such a simple process. Given the invasive and expensive nature of adoption, it is reasonable that this story of in-vitro is a viable option.

On a side note, I've had conversations with Mrs Misbehaved about adoption. I have a general idea that adoption costs should be fully funded by the government. Additionally, hospital birth delivery should be funded by the government. Of course this is not a black and white idea. I'm not fully on board with single payer health care, but the current system is very flawed as well. Maybe this is a topic for another thread.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Complicated Family Tree

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:13 pm

I think if there is a willing sperm/egg donor and a willing carrier, then any arraignment between parties should be allowed. Even for compensation.

Next time we grab lunch ask me about my wife's cousin. She's carried three pregnancies to full term as a surrogate for monetary compensation.

I don't get why anyone would choose to do this but I don't have a say in these matters. Its not my vagina!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Just This Guy
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Re: Complicated Family Tree

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:43 am

On a humoruse side note, what do you do when your family tree is a circle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlJH81dSiw
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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crazyhamster
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Re: Complicated Family Tree

Post by crazyhamster » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:27 pm

I guess it's more of a wreath, then?

Reminds me of this song!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlJH81dSiw

Kishkumen
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Re: Complicated Family Tree

Post by Kishkumen » Sat May 25, 2019 4:06 pm

.

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