Keeping up with Trump

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moksha
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by moksha » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:29 pm

Christian Evangelical pastors (and some LDS members) have now elevated Trump to a figure of religious worship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcdaJbURtZQ
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

hmb
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by hmb » Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:15 am

moksha wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:29 pm
Christian Evangelical pastors (and some LDS members) have now elevated Trump to a figure of religious worship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcdaJbURtZQ
I am sorry to say that I'm not shocked, or even mildly surprised. There's a good chance I'll still be alive in 20 years. I hate to think of what the USA will become. I think of the movie, "It's a Wonderful Life." If George Bailey had never been born, Pottersville would be a drastically different and much uglier place than Bedford Falls. I worry that we are on, potentially, a much worse path toward the end of democracy.

I've been blind into thinking that Trump is an idiot, a buffoon, a big loser that would eventually go away. He is actually quite smart when it comes to manipulation and lies. He may be a big loser, as an individual, but the rest of us will end up losing. I keep hoping that action can be taken to pull back and reverse the impending outcome, but I am becoming increasingly doubtful.

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nibbler
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by nibbler » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:18 am

hmb wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:15 am
I've been blind into thinking that Trump is an idiot, a buffoon, a big loser that would eventually go away. He is actually quite smart when it comes to manipulation and lies.
I have a different interpretation. I think he has severe NPD, an illness. I think his disorder is so bad that it impairs his ability to be a functioning adult.

The lies and manipulation aren't a part of some grand plan, they're all in service of protecting his own ego. The person he's really lying to and really trying to manipulate is himself; it's just that his followers (and the rest of us) are caught up his collateral damage.

NPD is an illness, an illness that produces lies and manipulation. To really drive this point home, we wouldn't say someone with a cold is smart because they're an expert at having a runny nose and sore throat, we'd just recognize that the runny nose and sore throat comes with the territory. Lies and manipulation are the runny nose and sore throat of narcissistic personality disorder.

In that sense I don't view him as smart or a buffoon. I view him as a man with a very serious illness. He needs help but the nature of the illness has him believing that he is the very best at everything, pushing away the help he desperately needs.

I don't want to throw shade at people that suffer from NPD. They can be very abusive in their relationship with others but there's also an inner turmoil. There are no winners when it comes to NPD.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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moksha
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by moksha » Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:53 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... riot-biden

The man who attempted to turn America into a dictatorship is still head of the Republican Party.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

hmb
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:43 am

Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by hmb » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:48 am

nibbler wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:18 am
hmb wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:15 am
I've been blind into thinking that Trump is an idiot, a buffoon, a big loser that would eventually go away. He is actually quite smart when it comes to manipulation and lies.
I have a different interpretation. I think he has severe NPD, an illness. I think his disorder is so bad that it impairs his ability to be a functioning adult.

The lies and manipulation aren't a part of some grand plan, they're all in service of protecting his own ego. The person he's really lying to and really trying to manipulate is himself; it's just that his followers (and the rest of us) are caught up his collateral damage.

NPD is an illness, an illness that produces lies and manipulation. To really drive this point home, we wouldn't say someone with a cold is smart because they're an expert at having a runny nose and sore throat, we'd just recognize that the runny nose and sore throat comes with the territory. Lies and manipulation are the runny nose and sore throat of narcissistic personality disorder.

In that sense I don't view him as smart or a buffoon. I view him as a man with a very serious illness. He needs help but the nature of the illness has him believing that he is the very best at everything, pushing away the help he desperately needs.

I don't want to throw shade at people that suffer from NPD. They can be very abusive in their relationship with others but there's also an inner turmoil. There are no winners when it comes to NPD.
Okay. Let's say it's due to illness. What about those who support the nonsense? What about those who remain silent about the nonsense, thus support? If it's an illness, why not educate the population about the illness and put the lies to rest? I've never heard of this specific illness and I suspect most people haven't. Do all the law makers have this illness? I would doubt that, but they are adding to, and supporting the lies. If Trump can't help himself due to an illness, he is still dangerous. There are many who commit crimes due to an illness, but we don't give them a pass, we lock them away for protection. Trumps rhetoric doesn't affect a small group of people, it affects the democracy of an entire nation.

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nibbler
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by nibbler » Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:17 am

People with NPD are often successful in attaining leadership positions. Manipulation comes natural to them and they often have a lack of empathy, two traits that can help anyone rise to the top of any organization. A part of the illness is building themselves up by tearing others down, nothing is ever their fault, and any success is a result of their efforts and their efforts alone. Charisma (though I struggle to see Trump's charisma) gets people to buy in, and once they are trusted (again not sure how Trump attained trusted status) they get promoted up the chain.
hmb wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:48 am
Do all the law makers have this illness?
It's a spectrum disorder, some people have it far worse than others, but experts estimate that 5% of people are somewhere on that spectrum. I think that there's a higher concentration of people with NPD among CEOs, politicians, and other leaders. That's not to say all leaders are on the spectrum.
hmb wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:48 am
I would doubt that, but they are adding to, and supporting the lies.
They're either using Trump for personal power or they're afraid of losing the support of Trump or his supporters (getting voted out).
hmb wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:48 am
What about those who support the nonsense? What about those who remain silent about the nonsense, thus support?
People in America, or maybe people in general, are extremely tribal about their political affiliations. That tribal affiliation (really a nicer way of me saying cult) can make people blind to a lot of things. Trump wouldn't have made it this far without his enablers. I don't understand it, I think Trump is has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, so I don't get why people hold him up as their gold standard. The best I come up with is that people want to be him (rich and famous) and they love how he's an @$$#0!3 and gets away with it because they wish they could get away with saying the same things in public but there would be repercussions for them??? I really don't get his appeal.

Another big one for any tribe, Trump has given people a very clear enemy, liberals. A common enemy unites any tribe. For the USA it used to be commies/Russia. Now I suppose it's socialism/the liberal half of America. Again, It's reached cult status so now anyone that doesn't agree with dear leader is an enemy.
hmb wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:48 am
If it's an illness, why not educate the population about the illness and put the lies to rest?
It wouldn't do any good. Trump inherited an existing environment of deep political tribalism. As soon as, "This guy has an illness." is out of your mouth you're immediately met with:
  • No, Obama had NPD!
  • You're just a never-Trumper!
  • The reason you think that is because you watch fake news that lied to you about what Trump does!
  • Or just a simple, "Nuh-uh!"
You're met with a wall of deflection, excuses, and attacks. It's going to be extremely hard for anyone that ties up most of their identity with their tribe to approach that subject fairly and rationally.

Just like sitting down with the most orthodox believing member you can think of and telling them Joseph Smith was a con-man. How will the member react? Will they listen to your case or will they immediately launch into a torrent of:
  • No, Jeremy Runnells is a con-man!
  • Satan is misleading you!
  • Anti-Mormon lies!
  • You're a lazy learner!
Just like someone that defends Trump. People can't see it until they see it and they usually don't see it until it affects them directly and affects them negatively.
hmb wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:48 am
If Trump can't help himself due to an illness, he is still dangerous.
Even more dangerous IMO. In all of his manipulations, he can also be manipulated in predictable ways. Feed into his authoritarianism, get what you want.
hmb wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:48 am
Trumps rhetoric doesn't affect a small group of people, it affects the democracy of an entire nation.
Agreed but if Trump went away quietly (he won't) his cult would remain and latch onto the next available monster.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

hmb
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:43 am

Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by hmb » Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:49 pm

I don't disagree with anything you've stated. I must have misread your first post. I took it as if you were defending Trump because of a possible illness.
nibbler wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:17 am
hmb wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:48 am
Trumps rhetoric doesn't affect a small group of people, it affects the democracy of an entire nation.
Agreed but if Trump went away quietly (he won't) his cult would remain and latch onto the next available monster.
If Trump had been ousted from his first impeachment, or even his second, his followers would likely not have as much strength in latching onto the next monster. Republican leaders would have been able to stand up against the lunacy we currently see. Now the Q quacks have a strong standing. The crazier the better. That is why I worry our democracy is going to end as we know it (with or without Trump). It feels like it's almost too late. Almost.

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