Keeping up with Trump

[moksha]

Christian Evangelical pastors (and some LDS members) have now elevated Trump to a figure of religious worship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcdaJbURtZQ

[hmb]

Christian Evangelical pastors (and some LDS members) have now elevated Trump to a figure of religious worship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcdaJbURtZQ

I am sorry to say that I'm not shocked, or even mildly surprised. There's a good chance I'll still be alive in 20 years. I hate to think of what the USA will become. I think of the movie, "It's a Wonderful Life." If George Bailey had never been born, Pottersville would be a drastically different and much uglier place than Bedford Falls. I worry that we are on, potentially, a much worse path toward the end of democracy.

I've been blind into thinking that Trump is an idiot, a buffoon, a big loser that would eventually go away. He is actually quite smart when it comes to manipulation and lies. He may be a big loser, as an individual, but the rest of us will end up losing. I keep hoping that action can be taken to pull back and reverse the impending outcome, but I am becoming increasingly doubtful.

[nibbler]

I've been blind into thinking that Trump is an idiot, a buffoon, a big loser that would eventually go away. He is actually quite smart when it comes to manipulation and lies.

I have a different interpretation. I think he has severe NPD, an illness. I think his disorder is so bad that it impairs his ability to be a functioning adult.

The lies and manipulation aren't a part of some grand plan, they're all in service of protecting his own ego. The person he's really lying to and really trying to manipulate is himself; it's just that his followers (and the rest of us) are caught up his collateral damage.

NPD is an illness, an illness that produces lies and manipulation. To really drive this point home, we wouldn't say someone with a cold is smart because they're an expert at having a runny nose and sore throat, we'd just recognize that the runny nose and sore throat comes with the territory. Lies and manipulation are the runny nose and sore throat of narcissistic personality disorder.

In that sense I don't view him as smart or a buffoon. I view him as a man with a very serious illness. He needs help but the nature of the illness has him believing that he is the very best at everything, pushing away the help he desperately needs.

I don't want to throw shade at people that suffer from NPD. They can be very abusive in their relationship with others but there's also an inner turmoil. There are no winners when it comes to NPD.

[moksha]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... riot-biden

The man who attempted to turn America into a dictatorship is still head of the Republican Party.

[hmb]

I've been blind into thinking that Trump is an idiot, a buffoon, a big loser that would eventually go away. He is actually quite smart when it comes to manipulation and lies.

I have a different interpretation. I think he has severe NPD, an illness. I think his disorder is so bad that it impairs his ability to be a functioning adult.

The lies and manipulation aren't a part of some grand plan, they're all in service of protecting his own ego. The person he's really lying to and really trying to manipulate is himself; it's just that his followers (and the rest of us) are caught up his collateral damage.

NPD is an illness, an illness that produces lies and manipulation. To really drive this point home, we wouldn't say someone with a cold is smart because they're an expert at having a runny nose and sore throat, we'd just recognize that the runny nose and sore throat comes with the territory. Lies and manipulation are the runny nose and sore throat of narcissistic personality disorder.

In that sense I don't view him as smart or a buffoon. I view him as a man with a very serious illness. He needs help but the nature of the illness has him believing that he is the very best at everything, pushing away the help he desperately needs.

I don't want to throw shade at people that suffer from NPD. They can be very abusive in their relationship with others but there's also an inner turmoil. There are no winners when it comes to NPD.

Okay. Let's say it's due to illness. What about those who support the nonsense? What about those who remain silent about the nonsense, thus support? If it's an illness, why not educate the population about the illness and put the lies to rest? I've never heard of this specific illness and I suspect most people haven't. Do all the law makers have this illness? I would doubt that, but they are adding to, and supporting the lies. If Trump can't help himself due to an illness, he is still dangerous. There are many who commit crimes due to an illness, but we don't give them a pass, we lock them away for protection. Trumps rhetoric doesn't affect a small group of people, it affects the democracy of an entire nation.

[nibbler]

People with NPD are often successful in attaining leadership positions. Manipulation comes natural to them and they often have a lack of empathy, two traits that can help anyone rise to the top of any organization. A part of the illness is building themselves up by tearing others down, nothing is ever their fault, and any success is a result of their efforts and their efforts alone. Charisma (though I struggle to see Trump's charisma) gets people to buy in, and once they are trusted (again not sure how Trump attained trusted status) they get promoted up the chain.

Do all the law makers have this illness?

It's a spectrum disorder, some people have it far worse than others, but experts estimate that 5% of people are somewhere on that spectrum. I think that there's a higher concentration of people with NPD among CEOs, politicians, and other leaders. That's not to say all leaders are on the spectrum.

I would doubt that, but they are adding to, and supporting the lies.

They're either using Trump for personal power or they're afraid of losing the support of Trump or his supporters (getting voted out).

What about those who support the nonsense? What about those who remain silent about the nonsense, thus support?

People in America, or maybe people in general, are extremely tribal about their political affiliations. That tribal affiliation (really a nicer way of me saying cult) can make people blind to a lot of things. Trump wouldn't have made it this far without his enablers. I don't understand it, I think Trump is has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, so I don't get why people hold him up as their gold standard. The best I come up with is that people want to be him (rich and famous) and they love how he's an @$$#0!3 and gets away with it because they wish they could get away with saying the same things in public but there would be repercussions for them??? I really don't get his appeal.

Another big one for any tribe, Trump has given people a very clear enemy, liberals. A common enemy unites any tribe. For the USA it used to be commies/Russia. Now I suppose it's socialism/the liberal half of America. Again, It's reached cult status so now anyone that doesn't agree with dear leader is an enemy.

If it's an illness, why not educate the population about the illness and put the lies to rest?

It wouldn't do any good. Trump inherited an existing environment of deep political tribalism. As soon as, "This guy has an illness." is out of your mouth you're immediately met with:

• No, Obama had NPD!
• You're just a never-Trumper!
• The reason you think that is because you watch fake news that lied to you about what Trump does!
• Or just a simple, "Nuh-uh!"

You're met with a wall of deflection, excuses, and attacks. It's going to be extremely hard for anyone that ties up most of their identity with their tribe to approach that subject fairly and rationally.

Just like sitting down with the most orthodox believing member you can think of and telling them Joseph Smith was a con-man. How will the member react? Will they listen to your case or will they immediately launch into a torrent of:

• No, Jeremy Runnells is a con-man!
• Satan is misleading you!
• Anti-Mormon lies!
• You're a lazy learner!

Just like someone that defends Trump. People can't see it until they see it and they usually don't see it until it affects them directly and affects them negatively.

If Trump can't help himself due to an illness, he is still dangerous.

Even more dangerous IMO. In all of his manipulations, he can also be manipulated in predictable ways. Feed into his authoritarianism, get what you want.

Trumps rhetoric doesn't affect a small group of people, it affects the democracy of an entire nation.

Agreed but if Trump went away quietly (he won't) his cult would remain and latch onto the next available monster.

[hmb]

I don't disagree with anything you've stated. I must have misread your first post. I took it as if you were defending Trump because of a possible illness.

Trumps rhetoric doesn't affect a small group of people, it affects the democracy of an entire nation.

Agreed but if Trump went away quietly (he won't) his cult would remain and latch onto the next available monster.

If Trump had been ousted from his first impeachment, or even his second, his followers would likely not have as much strength in latching onto the next monster. Republican leaders would have been able to stand up against the lunacy we currently see. Now the Q quacks have a strong standing. The crazier the better. That is why I worry our democracy is going to end as we know it (with or without Trump). It feels like it's almost too late. Almost.

[SaidNobody]

::smh::

[Meilingkie]

I miss my daily dose of delusion.......

[SaidNobody]

One that goes to others for delusion is truly self-deluded.

[moksha]

[AtlanticMike1]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... riot-biden

The man who attempted to turn America into a dictatorship is still head of the Republican Party.

Whhhhaaattt??

[AtlanticMike1]

Trump claims George Washington and Abe Lincoln could not have beaten him... delusional narcissism on display.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-c ... ic-2021-10

I don't think Abe Lincoln would of beaten Trump.

[Cnsl1]

Trump claims George Washington and Abe Lincoln could not have beaten him... delusional narcissism on display.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-c ... ic-2021-10

I don't think Abe Lincoln would of beaten Trump.

I still think my money would be on Abe with his axe vs Trump with his bravado.

[alas]

Actually NPD is NOT an illness. It is classified as a personality disorder, which are classified in a much different way than mental illness. Different axis when diagnosing from DSM. Whole different animal. With mental illness the brain chemistry is off, out of whack, the person is malfunctioning. If it is malfunctioning, maybe it can be fixed.

With the personality disorders, there is no chemistry that is off, there is no injury, no brain damage or malfunction. There is no chance of a cure. With personality disorder, nothing is malfunctioning. It is just how he is. The guy is just an a**. That is his personality, why it is called a personality disorder, because it is the way the person was built and there is no malfunction about it. He is operating just exactly how he operates. No disfunction or brain disorder. No chemistry that is out f whack.

Same as being gay, in a way, although I hate the comparison, because gay people don’t harm others. Most of the personality disorders do harm others. But several things that used to be classified as mental illness have been changed to “how the person is.” Like being gay is just how the person is. Nothing wrong, But it is just how the person is. And some of the PDs seem hereditary to some degree. For a long time psychologists tried to find “causes” for things like being gay, or being autistic, or having personality disorders. Because if there is a cause, maybe there is a cure. It HAD to be something the (most likely)mother did to the kid when he was tiny. But they are finding that many things that were once thought to be illness or emotional problems are really just the way the person is. And the person can’t be “fixed”.

See, you can’t call Trump dysfunctional. He functions VERY well to get what he wants at the cost of those around him. You can call him a lot of nasty names, but not dysfunctional. He functions very well to get what he wants.

[Cnsl1]

I usually agree with everything you say, Alas, but I disagree with your assessment regarding the etiology and prognosis of NPD or any of the other personality disorders.

It's a disorder. There IS something malfunctioning, which is one reason why it's identified as a disorder. What is malfunctioning is the behavior in relation to other people. The WHY is still debated and being researched, but likely related environmental and genetic as well as biological factors. Brain based research studies are helping us understand that early insults and injuries, and just differences in sizes of brain parts and how the parts function, can help explain some behaviors and disorders that we used to think were 100% environmental (such as ODD); these things now do seem to have a biological component. If we can identify early risk factors for those more susceptible to PDs, we can intervene earlier and increase the likelihood the person might better work and play well with others.

One primary criteria for identifying a "disorder" is a deviance from the norm. which is the case with PDs. It is not normal to act that way and fortunately most people do not.

Homosexuality is also deviant from the norm, which is one big reason it was considered a "disorder" until around.. what was it, 1968? I can't remember if it was taken out of the DSM-II or III. Equating PDs with homosexuality makes some sense, but is a horrible comparison, like you say, because sexual orientation doesn't harm others, AND also because treatments to turn people straight do not work, while some treatments for PDs have been shown to be effective. But yes, PDs are still quite resistant to treatment. For now.

Finally, I'm sure you're aware that the multiaxel diagnostic process is outdated, and before it became outdated there was still a great deal of debate as to where PDs should be. Since they were thought to be more of a long standing problem, they got lumped into an axis with things like (what used to be called) mental retardation. Ironically, autism was lumped with other "regular" disorders, which also didn't ever seem to make much sense imo.

It has been my opinion that one of the reasons we (meaning the mental health professionals) got stuck on PDs being just "who the person is" and virtually unchangeable was because in part due to the naming the damned things personality disorders and placing them on a diagnostic axis that told us they were related to the person's personality and was virtually unchangeable. Like a self fulfilling prophecy.

Again, it's my opinion, based on some emerging research, that PDs ARE related to biological dysfunction, such as emotional dysregulation and impulse control.

Opining further, and bringing this rant back to the ranch, I'm of the opinion that Trump could also be diagnosed with ADHD. He sure seems impulsive, hyperactive, and inattentive. For a guy who has claimed to be detail-oriented, he reportedly misses big details about important things and goes into meetings unprepared and half-cocked. He seems like a "ready, fire, aim" sort of leader who says whatever shit crosses his brain at any given moment. That's just my impression. Fortunately I've never met the man.

But, what would happen if you combine adhd with a healthy work ethic, high competitiveness, a life of privilege, and the means to get bailed out of every mess you created for yourself. When you get rewarded for acting like a tough guy and pretending to be decisive, even when you don't know what the hell you're doing? Add a good measure of never learning how to lose, and maybe this mix of mess becomes NPD.

Does he get what he wants? Usually.. but not always. He hasn't in quite a while. Maybe he's now more open to get help. Who knows?

[alas]

Thank you for your reply. It is nice thinking we can actually disagree and discuss things, unlike some other discussion board where I have lurked that everything is attack first and never even agree on terms so you can have a discussion, just go back and forth for 50 some pages yelling at each other.

Anyway, no I was not aware that the DSM has changed the way they classify the personality disorders, again. I believe that a few years before I was learning DSM, they had changed it to split off into a different axis for PD, and now you tell me they have changed again. But, I have not been keeping up in the mental health field, no reason to once one decides never to work in the field again.

Well, I didn’t so much decide as I burned out, went down in flames in a crash and then took five years to become aware that I was subconsciously avoiding going within two miles of the agency that failed to be aware that they burned through workers like a five year old playing with matches. I had friends trying to warn me to find an agency that gave a #%$&$#@ about their employees.

So, my education was with DSM III, and I kept up through four and most of five.

And I was trying to stick with the “experts” that personality “disorders” are inborn. Because that was what I was taught and so my argument was not consistent because I think I disagree with the experts. Which I don’t know, but IF that is the case, then all the people who keep thinking Trump is going to come to his senses are wrong. If it is an inborn disorder, which I sorta doubt, then he can’t be fixed. If it is not inborn, then …..we’ll, let’s discuss that in a minute.

I am not surprised that the DSM people don’t know how to classify PDs, or change it back and forth or whatever they are doing, because I often suspect that we in the field of mental health, human behavior, or whatever we call it, is just a case of the blind leading the blind. Like much of Freud has been debunked, like the early claims of behaviorism have not proven accurate, like I sat my children down and figured out that Piaget had a flaw in the way he asked certain questions, which led him to think kids didn’t understand sets and subsets as well as they actually did. Either that or my children were some kind of super genius.

Anyway, I have this habit of questioning the theories as not fitting the applied reality. So, first of all, know that I am a rebel who questions the theories of the “experts”. But still thinks I should sound like I agree with them.

Second of all, let me explain that Trump triggers me in ways that may not be rational because my father fits exactly into the NPD diagnosis. And I should put up warnings that say, “I get triggered” instead of that someone else may get triggered.


So,

But what bothers me about Trump and people saying that he has NPD is that some of them are saying that the man is sick and shouldn’t be held accountable because he can’t help himself.

I don’t think it is true that people with NPD can’t control their behavior. They *do* control it when necessary. But Trump has seldom found it necessary.

But back to maybe it isn’t inborn and unchangable. I worked with domestic violence, usually men who beat wives or women they considered belonged to them. The whole picture is different with women who beat their partners, so, for this discussion, we are skipping them.

There are some things that batterers have in common with personality disorders, but what the experts in that field were saying is that battering is learned behavior. There is a payoff to it. The batterer claims that he loses his temper and is out of control. But somehow they are never so “out of control” that they break their own golf clubs, smash the windshield of their own car, or kill their own pet. They actually get drunk, knowing that if they are drunk they will be excused because they are drunk. They plan it and get drunk because they want the excuse or because it is easier when drunk. They start calculating how and when they will beat their wife next. And it progresses from mild to worse. It is learned behavior.

Treatment is hard because the short term payoff is too good, and they simply don’t want to change unless forced. We cannot prevent the short term payoff, so from a behaviorist perspective, there is no way to extinguish the behavior.

Back to NPD. I see signs that the extreme selfishness, or at least the behaviors that manifest, are learned behaviors in people with NPD. We could call the extreme selfishness a “disorder” but isn’t that just making excuses for what we could also call evil? Or if you don’t like the concept of evil, stick with selfish.

Trumps claims of the election being stolen was set up over a year ahead of time. That is calculation ahead of time. He knew he was going to claim fraud and calculated how to get away with it. He also has no lack of understanding the feelings of others. He manipulates those feelings. How does he get a beautiful model to fall for him, unless he understands how she feel enough to manipulate her? Understanding how she feels is “empathy” or at least the knowledge behind empathy. How does a person like my father know *exactly* how to hurt someone emotionally unless they understand exactly how that person feels. How do they know the perfect thing to say to flatter? Or to slice your heart in half? They understand perfectly how others feel, often better than the person themselves.

Autistic people fail to understand how others feel, but if they did they would care. That is a disfunction. Not being able to understand is a disorder. But NPD people know how others feel and they just don’t care. At least as long as they get what they want. They care plenty when they want something from that person, until they get what they want and then they don’t care. Is extreme selfishness really a “disfunction?”

I just don’t know. Where is the line between mental illness or mental disorder and evil? I mean, I can sort of understand the troubled kid that shoots up a school, because he just hasn’t learned coping skills. And in the same way, I can sort of see how someone learns short term functional but long term dysfunctional coping skills that lead them to beat their wife, and also see how someone like my father can learn short term coping skills that are really long term dysfunctional that are what gets called NPD. Not an inborn disorder at all, but a learned behavior that we simply cannot get them to want to change. They like the payoff, and we just can’t control the payoff, so we can’t make them want to change.

Like I said, I just don’t know. But please don’t let people say that we shouldn’t hold Trump accountable because he is suffering from something where he can’t control his behavior. We have to hold him accountable to protect others. He just won’t control and that is the difference I see. And he can’t be fixed because he doesn’t want to be fixed, not because he has some “dysfunction” he cannot control. At least that is how see it.

My father could control his behavior if he was going to pay consequences for it. He never got so much as a speeding ticket or n any trouble with the law, because that had consequences. He never got in any trouble with a boss, that had consequences. But some of the time he could arrange things so somebody else got hurt and not him. And if he didn’t pay any consequences, he didn’t care who got hurt.

So, I have real doubts that the dysfunction of PD is a disorder, I think NPD is a dysfunction. It is dysfunctional in the way that other learned behavior can be harmful long term, but short term has some great payoffs.

I hope this makes better sense.

[alas]

Oh, back to Trump, yes, he has impulse control problems and lack of emotional regulation, plus some real stupidity, but those are not part of NPD, but would be part of some other diagnosis.

[moksha]

I've read psychologists talking about Trump. Two phrases I remember are malignant narcissism and pathological liar. Lying for no reason or clear benefit is something Trump will do, indicating he just can't help it. The degree of narcissism speaks for itself: He praises himself constantly and is willing to create a civil war because he cannot admit defeat.

As far as narcissism, Trump being the object of cult worship and having supporters willing to support all his lies and declare him dictator for life certainly feeds into his disorders.

[Cnsl1]

I'm sorry for your past hx with your father and wish no child would ever go through that. I recognize that there are some things i cannot ever know or feel because I had a fortunate childhood. I do recognize that growing up as a child of an abused child has its own challenges, and even more than I realized while growing up, but I thank the gods and my mother that for whatever reason, that abuse did not continue into the next generation, as abuse often does.

I'm also sorry you were.. well, maybe kind of abused by the agencies you were trying to provide professional services through. I've seen that happen. Mental health is severely underfunded, and many agencies and health authority organizations acquire big contracts to provide services, but do not fairly compensate the professionals actually doing the hard work. In 20+ years as a psych, I've seen numerous professional counselors become burned out by outlandish workloads and low pay, until we've come to the point where the actual service providers are not actual trained professionals but "techs" or insufficiently trained and educated "case managers". Nothing against those people who are probably trying their damndest, they're just a part of a failed mental health system in a country that cares more about giving every shithead the right to bear a machine gun than keeping those same shitheads from losing their shit and shooting the shit out of the nearest elementary school.

Now, there are some great things happening, but for the most part, and in my opinion, the cost/funding ratios are out of whack.

Regarding PDs.. it's not that they're considered a LOT differently than they were before, but that there is more evidence of a biological based dysfunction or brain based malady as part of the etiology of PDs. Also the whole multiaxil system of diagnosis was scrapped wth the DSM5. For all dx.

This is not to suggest that Trump should be excused for crimes and misbehavior just because he has a diagnosable mental health condition. There are levels of awareness and understanding. He's obviously cogent enough to become the president of the USA, so you could argue he's very functional and I would say that not all psych disorders are all bad but can be very adaptive in certain situations. But when he commits crimes, when he causes chaos that creates havoc, there needs to be some accountability and it doesn't seem like he's ever really had any. I do believe that his possible mental health dx should be considered when inacting punishment but I don't think he should escape punishment.

Finally, at what point should a lack of empathy be considered a "disorder"? Like you say, a person with ASD may lack empathy but it looks different. They lack the the ability to understand another's mind, or that the others' mind is different, but as they better understand, their behavior improves. The person with NPD understands, or seems to, but doesn't care, and uses the fact that others have empathy as a weapon against them. I still believe this is related to a brain based difference, but it's probably a semantic argument whether or not any brain based difference (if indeed there is one) constitutes a psych disorder. There's also the argument of what came first? The brain difference or the narcissistic behaviors because experience changes the brain.

One thing i think we can definitely agree on is that trump is an awful person.

I thought it was really really interesting that during the election he frequently said, "I'm going to win, there's no way I won't win. If I don't win it's because the other side cheated". Very much a self serving bias. If I win it's because I'm awesome. If I lose it's because you cheated. No one should have been surprised at what happened in Jan of 2021. It was foreshadowed. The movie of the election would suck. We knew what was going to happen.