Keeping up with Trump

Chat about a topic supported by books, TED Talks, podcasts, personal experience, philosophies of mankind mingled with humor (shout out to IOT), and maybe we’ll even do a google hangout or conference call once a month.
Cnsl1
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Cnsl1 » Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:22 am

I'm sorry for your past hx with your father and wish no child would ever go through that. I recognize that there are some things i cannot ever know or feel because I had a fortunate childhood. I do recognize that growing up as a child of an abused child has its own challenges, and even more than I realized while growing up, but I thank the gods and my mother that for whatever reason, that abuse did not continue into the next generation, as abuse often does.

I'm also sorry you were.. well, maybe kind of abused by the agencies you were trying to provide professional services through. I've seen that happen. Mental health is severely underfunded, and many agencies and health authority organizations acquire big contracts to provide services, but do not fairly compensate the professionals actually doing the hard work. In 20+ years as a psych, I've seen numerous professional counselors become burned out by outlandish workloads and low pay, until we've come to the point where the actual service providers are not actual trained professionals but "techs" or insufficiently trained and educated "case managers". Nothing against those people who are probably trying their damndest, they're just a part of a failed mental health system in a country that cares more about giving every shithead the right to bear a machine gun than keeping those same shitheads from losing their shit and shooting the shit out of the nearest elementary school.

Now, there are some great things happening, but for the most part, and in my opinion, the cost/funding ratios are out of whack.

Regarding PDs.. it's not that they're considered a LOT differently than they were before, but that there is more evidence of a biological based dysfunction or brain based malady as part of the etiology of PDs. Also the whole multiaxil system of diagnosis was scrapped wth the DSM5. For all dx.

This is not to suggest that Trump should be excused for crimes and misbehavior just because he has a diagnosable mental health condition. There are levels of awareness and understanding. He's obviously cogent enough to become the president of the USA, so you could argue he's very functional and I would say that not all psych disorders are all bad but can be very adaptive in certain situations. But when he commits crimes, when he causes chaos that creates havoc, there needs to be some accountability and it doesn't seem like he's ever really had any. I do believe that his possible mental health dx should be considered when inacting punishment but I don't think he should escape punishment.

Finally, at what point should a lack of empathy be considered a "disorder"? Like you say, a person with ASD may lack empathy but it looks different. They lack the the ability to understand another's mind, or that the others' mind is different, but as they better understand, their behavior improves. The person with NPD understands, or seems to, but doesn't care, and uses the fact that others have empathy as a weapon against them. I still believe this is related to a brain based difference, but it's probably a semantic argument whether or not any brain based difference (if indeed there is one) constitutes a psych disorder. There's also the argument of what came first? The brain difference or the narcissistic behaviors because experience changes the brain.

One thing i think we can definitely agree on is that trump is an awful person.

I thought it was really really interesting that during the election he frequently said, "I'm going to win, there's no way I won't win. If I don't win it's because the other side cheated". Very much a self serving bias. If I win it's because I'm awesome. If I lose it's because you cheated. No one should have been surprised at what happened in Jan of 2021. It was foreshadowed. The movie of the election would suck. We knew what was going to happen.

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alas
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by alas » Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:27 am

Sometimes being too close to NPD probably blinds a person to, well having any empathy for the j*** a**. On my good days, I think maybe my father had a real inability to empathize. So, maybe he understands intellectually how others feel, but he can’t feel it. So, he can use the understanding as a weapon against them, but not feel bad about what he does to them. Empathy is more than just knowing how someone feels. It is feeling it with them.

So, sometimes I think maybe there is a brain disconnect, some short circuit between understanding how others feel and feeling it with them. But there is also a disconnect between the power they feel when hurting someone, and the idea that if you keep hurting someone they are going to hate you. I watched my dad hurt my mother over and over and over, then be surprised that she was angry about any of it. They use how the person feels to manipulate their victim into loving them, but can’t seem to figure out that if they keep hurting the victim that victim is going to stop loving them. Like they think all love is unconditional and once given it will never change. Maybe because growing up, their mother forgives them for all the selfish, childish things they do, so they think that if wife loves them, she will also forgive all the selfish childish things.

So, I do see learned behavior and I also see how that learned behavior could maybe combine with a deficit, but the deficit seems unclear. In some situations they see perfectly well, that if they act this way to their boss, he will fire them, that if they say this to the girl friend, she will love him, or if they say that she will dump him. If they say this to the voters they will vote for him. But in other cases, they just can’t imagine. So, they get totally blindsided by something like voters who vote specifically against him. They can’t comprehend why people hate them. It HAS to be something terribly wrong with that person, because it couldn’t possibly be any problem with their behavior.

And if Trumps mental condition is used in holding him accountable, it should be used by locking him up even longer to protect people from him. Punishment is less important than protecting society. Besides, any punishment he will just blame on others. They just hate him cause he is so great. He isn’t capable of connecting his behavior to any punishment. Maybe give him 50 years of mandatory, everyday counseling, as sort of probation for life.

And the inability to connect his own behavior with punishment can be learned by having a parent who is arbitrary and abusive. Manipulation of others as survival can also be learned with an arbitrary and abusive parent.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Jun 11, 2022 4:03 pm

Whatever Trump's disorder or diagnosis, he was considered the Pinnacle of the American dream. Then he said he was going to run. And then everyone started to hate him. And then he said that he would outsmart them all and everyone laughed at him for being so stupid. And then he won the election and everyone called him a cheat after everyone insisted that there was no way to cheat. Then when he called cheat everyone because the numbers didn't match everyone called them before loser and crazy for saying that the system was rigged.

I worked the precinct this last election. Democrats could tell me exactly how Trump cheated and how Russia won him the election, even though there was zero proof. And though I pointed out dozens of statistically impossible numbers, they thought I was insane to consider that the election was rigged.

I don't know if hypocrisy is a disorder, but it was definitely right around that discussion.

dogbite
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by dogbite » Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:21 pm

As you don't believe in facts,the content of the post can be dismissed as nonfactual.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:17 pm

dogbite wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:21 pm
As you don't believe in facts,the content of the post can be dismissed as nonfactual.
Is that a fact? Just because I don't believe in facts doesn't mean that my opinion doesn't add to the overall balance of reality. My opinion cannot be dismissed it is part of existence itself. Or if it is not, then neither is yours. I do not just miss you, as my respect for you would not allow that. But my respect for you is based on your membership of the human race and not because you are special.

When it was impossible to manipulate a election, suddenly Trump was capable and we spent two years of endless investigations. And when it was statistically impossible for biting to win over 64 lawsuits were dismissed for lack of standing. But somehow you guys accept that as an answer.

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Hagoth
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:34 am

I think the truth is pretty basic. Ultimately our system works pretty well. Trump won legitimately, then Biden won legitimately. The rest is politics and polemics.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:27 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:34 am
I think the truth is pretty basic. Ultimately our system works pretty well. Trump won legitimately, then Biden won legitimately. The rest is politics and polemics.
Perhaps truth is more basic than even that. I do not look at truth as black and white, but ass possibilities and probabilities.

Observers have known that elections have been rigged almost since the beginning of America. But the ratings were usually fairly local and intimate. Perhaps a landlord wanted to become official, so invited all of his tenants to a party and obtained their sworn vote. Historically, the vote is usually thrown by a small margin.

Even in larger cities, a few thousand votes can make someone the victor. And if he can buy those votes, they will. There are dozens of effective cheating campaigns that have been documented.

Part of what is suspicious is when we know it is possible to cheat and at one party insists that it isn't. In Chicago, crime gangs controlled the entire neighborhoods just to have their votes on certain occasions. Immigrants would be welcomed with open arms and then crammed into impossibly poor conditions where they were never able to get out. Some networking entrepreneurs would go throughout the neighborhood and collect votes from people that they could then give to a particular person at the time of the election.

We know this is possible and we have several documented videographers who captured how it works. But for one of the parties to insist that it is impossible again a suspicious.

Then, when Trump won it is suddenly possible and it was done by Russia. I don't know what the rest of you were watching, but for two years it was blatant fraud lying and cheating. We had the documentation to prove that the Russian dossier was fake. We had the proof that had been paid for by the Democratic research opposition. But through politics is stayed in play. They never told us who Russia helped. They made a song and dance that never proved anything. Then they tried to impeach him twice without any kind of evidence.

I can accept that Joe Biden won the election. But it was done with fraud. It was so blatant that it's pretty stunning. You say that truth is simple. I find that that is not true at all. For every conscious point in the game there is truth and it is never completely aligned with another point. On election is about who had the most votes. Democracy is not as perfect as some would make it seem. Somehow Joe Biden got the most votes. But he won a place that were held open longer than they should have been as they did recounts more and more votes showed up. When Trump went to sleep on election night he had won. But when he woke up he had lost and there was a mountain of controversy around five different points in the nation where Biden had got a influx of votes throughout the night. Pennsylvania didn't call their election for days. Arizona's has been overturned.

An election is only that because we agree to the outcome. But there is a lot of us who don't really believe it.

Cnsl1
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Cnsl1 » Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:44 am

Like bearing a testimony, repeating something over and over again does not make it true.

I wrote out a three paragraph reply but lost it. Just as well.

Just like Clinton lost in 2016, and Trump lost in 2020. It's gone. Let it go.

No contested states were overturned. Especially not Arizona. Saying it was overturned does not make it true.

I'm still amazed at the influence Trump had over so many people, and still has over quite a lot of people. I'll give him that. I wish he would have been a good president but I think the narcissism and possible ADHD got in the way. It was all about him, not the country, and when he lost, Trump incited a riot; there should be a consequence.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:58 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:44 am
Like bearing a testimony, repeating something over and over again does not make it true.

I wrote out a three paragraph reply but lost it. Just as well.

Just like Clinton lost in 2016, and Trump lost in 2020. It's gone. Let it go.

No contested states were overturned. Especially not Arizona. Saying it was overturned does not make it true.

I'm still amazed at the influence Trump had over so many people, and still has over quite a lot of people. I'll give him that. I wish he would have been a good president but I think the narcissism and possible ADHD got in the way. It was all about him, not the country, and when he lost, Trump incited a riot; there should be a consequence.
Just saying that Trump has influence over us doesn't make it true either. Saying that Trump incited a riot doesn't make it true either. Just saying that it was all about Trump and not about the country doesn't make it true. In fact everything you just said was wrong.

Cnsl1
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by Cnsl1 » Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:39 pm

What are your thoughts on Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster?

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:26 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:39 pm
What are your thoughts on Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster?
Lots of legends and possibilities, but I really haven't given them any thought for years.

But here is some evidence for consideration.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wh ... unties-go/

According to this site, and the BBC, the bellwether counties were simply too racist and uneducated to vote for the right president this time. Now, if you believe that we Trump supporters are racist and uneducated, this probably makes sense to you. There are many other statistical improbabilities that make sense if Trump voters are stupid. But if your whole explanation of how Biden won is the Trump voters are stupid and racist, you should check yourself.

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deacon blues
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by deacon blues » Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:52 pm

Mr. Trump has been known to run in religious circles. Has anyone every asked Donald Trump, "Do you feel a need to repent?
Or, "If you were detached from reality, how would you know?" :o


A couple of Mark Twain quotes might be helpful: "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).
- Notebook, 1904
When you set aside mere names & come down to realities, you find that we are ruled by a King just as other absolute monarchies are. His name is The Majority. He is mighty in bulk & strength ... He rules by the right of possessing less money & less brains & more ignorance than the other competitor for the throne, The Minority. Ours is an Absolute Monarchy.
- unsent letter to Bayard Taylor, June 10, 1878. Published in Mark Twain at Large by Arthur L. Scott" ;)
But, I could be wrong. :lol:
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:12 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:52 pm
Mr. Trump has been known to run in religious circles. Has anyone every asked Donald Trump, "Do you feel a need to repent?
Or, "If you were detached from reality, how would you know?" :o
I am almost an expert at reality. And forgive me for being so arrogant and bold as to claim that. Reality is perception. There is simply no truer statement than that. What we perceive is very personal. But in order to share the world and the experiences in it we must come up with common themes and agree upon ideas that we call facts.

Even though I don't like facts, as they're very claim to existence is false, I do know how to use them. Every time a trump hater is questioned about the crimes that Trump supposedly committed, they simply babble about the facts that they cannot seem to present. For those who make the effort, some can come up with reports or allegations of wrongdoing, or bad behavior, but never anything that is actually against the law. He has stiffed caterers and builders and some people think that is a crime. And when you look into it, it was usually because of a bankruptcy or poor service.

I have never heard of any politician being asked if they want to repent. If we were go by the facts, the only thing Trump needs to repent of is being the American ideal of success. Some might accuse him of being shallow but he's very successful. I personally don't think he's shallow.

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stealthbishop
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:13 pm

I just don't believe in the big lie. If Trump's own daughter and his bootlicking attorney general (no friend to the Democrats) both say there was nothing to this lie that Biden's win was the greatest fraud perpetrated on the American people--I tend to believe them. The fact that Trump and his lawyers litigated the voter fraud issue over 60 times in several states without any results whatsoever in the courts--I'm sorry, I just don't believe it. Just because Trump says it, doesn't make it true. I would have to see evidence in a court of law and there ain't anything there so far. Not gonna rely on any YouTubers who make their money with creating content that triggers people's confirmation bias. Needs to be in court, under oath, and before a judge. Then maybe I might take a look at it. Until then, I'm not going to waste my time or hold my breath.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:10 pm

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:13 pm
I just don't believe in the big lie. If Trump's own daughter and his bootlicking attorney general (no friend to the Democrats) both say there was nothing to this lie that Biden's win was the greatest fraud perpetrated on the American people--I tend to believe them. The fact that Trump and his lawyers litigated the voter fraud issue over 60 times in several states without any results whatsoever in the courts--I'm sorry, I just don't believe it. Just because Trump says it, doesn't make it true. I would have to see evidence in a court of law and there ain't anything there so far. Not gonna rely on any YouTubers who make their money with creating content that triggers people's confirmation bias. Needs to be in court, under oath, and before a judge. Then maybe I might take a look at it. Until then, I'm not going to waste my time or hold my breath.
The term "bootlicking" screams your position. You don't have enough mutual respect to even consider an unbiased opinion.

Ivanka is awesome. She did more to help the world than nearly any other women. But she didn't get a free pass on, I believe her without thinking for myself. I personally watched things happen that make me doubt the results. Just crying, "it all makes sense if you believe white people are racist."

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deacon blues
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by deacon blues » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:35 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:12 pm
deacon blues wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:52 pm
Mr. Trump has been known to run in religious circles. Has anyone every asked Donald Trump, "Do you feel a need to repent?
Or, "If you were detached from reality, how would you know?" :o
I am almost an expert at reality. And forgive me for being so arrogant and bold as to claim that. Reality is perception. There is simply no truer statement than that. What we perceive is very personal. But in order to share the world and the experiences in it we must come up with common themes and agree upon ideas that we call facts.

Even though I don't like facts, as they're very claim to existence is false, I do know how to use them. Every time a trump hater is questioned about the crimes that Trump supposedly committed, they simply babble about the facts that they cannot seem to present. For those who make the effort, some can come up with reports or allegations of wrongdoing, or bad behavior, but never anything that is actually against the law. He has stiffed caterers and builders and some people think that is a crime. And when you look into it, it was usually because of a bankruptcy or poor service.

I have never heard of any politician being asked if they want to repent. If we were go by the facts, the only thing Trump needs to repent of is being the American ideal of success. Some might accuse him of being shallow but he's very successful. I personally don't think he's shallow.
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."-W.B. Yeats

There is an irony about humility: just when you think you are humble you should reexamine yourself.
The Same is true of certainty.

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too." Rudyard Kipling

My perception is that people who think their perception trumps all others (excuse the pun) should be doubted.
But I could be wrong. :D
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:42 pm

I don't consider myself knowing of anything. My knowing isn't of one thing but many different possibilities. And I have never pretended or claimed to be humble. I am terribly arrogant.

But you still haven't provided any crimes that Trump committed. Call me aspirant'arrogant, but you don't seem to have any.

hmb
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by hmb » Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:22 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:12 pm
deacon blues wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:52 pm
Mr. Trump has been known to run in religious circles. Has anyone every asked Donald Trump, "Do you feel a need to repent?
Or, "If you were detached from reality, how would you know?" :o
Even though I don't like facts, as they're very claim to existence is false, I do know how to use them.
I find it amusing that you don't like facts, but will use them when they suit you. It would be quite an experience to watch you in a well prepared, civil debate, arguing the big lie. As for Trump's crimes, plenty of republicans from Trump's inner circle, are spilling a lot of interesting information during these hearings. I hope you are paying attention. You don't have to believe them, but you should be paying attention.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:26 am

If you hold somebody on the torture rack long enough, they will confess anything. We used to call that a witch Hunt. Once you had been identified then you more or less confessed to being a witch whether you've done anything wrong or not. I watched for years as his enemies tried to find something against Trump or his friends and found it all completely nonsense. Circumstantial relationships were pulled in and people arrested for knowing people. His lawyer was brought in on tax frauds under a law that no one else had ever been brought in on. They were scraping the bottom of the barrel. They impeached him twice over nothing. I bet Ukraine and the rest of the world is begging Trump to come back into office and fix what Biden how screwed up.

The entire world clambered over the wording in Helsinki to decide if Trump had committed treason against the United States. If they had done that to Joe Biden they would have burned him at the steak on the first day. The double standard is so nauseating and then it is really hard to take.

And I don't believe them. Even with the FBI and CIA trying to protect Hillary they couldn't make her look innocent. And that with all of that same law enforcement trying to convict Trump, they haven't even come close.

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moksha
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by moksha » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:41 am

Why do Trump and his supporters persist in perpetuating lies?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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