Keeping up with Trump

Chat about a topic supported by books, TED Talks, podcasts, personal experience, philosophies of mankind mingled with humor (shout out to IOT), and maybe we’ll even do a google hangout or conference call once a month.
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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:43 am

moksha wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:41 am
Why do Trump and his supporters persist in perpetuating lies?
Why do you persist in ignoring the truth?

A week before the election I happened to have the local news on and they we're reporting that someone had broken into a warehouse and stolen several laptops from the election equipment. That right there would technically have invalidated the Pennsylvania election. All the encryption keys have been stolen. This was on live TV a week before the election. But after the election you never heard anything about it.

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moksha
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by moksha » Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:08 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:43 am
Why do you persist in ignoring the truth?
In terms of evidence, the ship has pretty much sailed on the Trump White House being a criminal enterprise.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:13 pm

moksha wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:08 pm
SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:43 am
Why do you persist in ignoring the truth?
In terms of evidence, the ship has pretty much sailed on the Trump White House being a criminal enterprise.
Ships sink. There were issues with the Trump White House, but most of the crimes were people thinking they were saving the country from him. And yet, I know I have asked this before. What crimes?

dogbite
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by dogbite » Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:11 pm

Crimes? Seditious conspiracy, obstruction of justice, sexual assault, inheritance fraud, tax evasion, loan fraud, campaign finance fraud....

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:52 pm

dogbite wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:11 pm
Crimes? Seditious conspiracy, obstruction of justice, sexual assault, inheritance fraud, tax evasion, loan fraud, campaign finance fraud....
These are accusations. I've got thousands of them for anyone of your choice. I'm hoping you have a conviction.

dogbite
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by dogbite » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:46 pm

Mueller pretty much proved the obstruction charge. But did notbring charges under the Department policy of not indicting the sitting president.

The jan 6 the committee is laying a pretty damning case forTrump and Eastman.

A number of these other cases are in process.

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deacon blues
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by deacon blues » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:19 pm

God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:54 pm

dogbite wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:46 pm
Mueller pretty much proved the obstruction charge. But did notbring charges under the Department policy of not indicting the sitting president.

The jan 6 the committee is laying a pretty damning case forTrump and Eastman.

A number of these other cases are in process.
That whole Mueller thing was a "nothing burger." Presidents have a protection clause for a reason. Biden's order to pull out of Afghanistan killed a lot of people. If he were anything but the president he would have been charged with murder and I have a dozen other things. I definitely think you should be criminally charged except that you can't charge a president so I don't sit here and say he committed crimes. Yeah you guys think that because they invented some crimes and published them that he is somehow guilty of them. President can do just about anything he wants.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:56 pm

This is why I don't believe in facts. Sure you can print them and they have a certain amount of authority that everyone must accept them but it doesn't mean they're true. If a judge orders a certain verdict than it is a fact and everyone must follow his order but it doesn't make it true. The election results might be a fact but they are not true. Biden lost on every count of mattered except the final numbers. He wouldn't have even won his own primary except that the party rigged for him. Bernie would beat him out again but instead he took a bribe.

hmb
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by hmb » Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:26 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 5:52 pm
dogbite wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:11 pm
Crimes? Seditious conspiracy, obstruction of justice, sexual assault, inheritance fraud, tax evasion, loan fraud, campaign finance fraud....
These are accusations. I've got thousands of them for anyone of your choice. I'm hoping you have a conviction.
No one can answer this...yet. So far, Trump has not been convicted of a crime. He and his organizations are still being investigated. These may reveal criminal activity and they may not. Trump is a despicable shell of a human (yes, an opinion, not fact so you should be okay with it), but still deserves to be treated fairly under the law. No one can “name his crimes” until he’s charged and convicted. If Trump were charged, you would continue to dance around and claim fake fake fake. If he were convicted, your dance would continue because facts don't matter to you. I find your arguments and dialog entertaining, but without any meat. Debating with people like you is like trying to eat liquid jello with a fork. But keep posting your comments, laughter is good medicine.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:31 am

hmb wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:26 am

No one can answer this...yet. So far, Trump has not been convicted of a crime. He and his organizations are still being investigated. These may reveal criminal activity and they may not. Trump is a despicable shell of a human (yes, an opinion, not fact so you should be okay with it), but still deserves to be treated fairly under the law. No one can “name his crimes” until he’s charged and convicted. If Trump were charged, you would continue to dance around and claim fake fake fake. If he were convicted, your dance would continue because facts don't matter to you. I find your arguments and dialog entertaining, but without any meat. Debating with people like you is like trying to eat liquid jello with a fork. But keep posting your comments, laughter is good medicine.
I'm sorry, but your statement is so messed up.

1) you have no crime
2) even so, Trump is despicable
3) half the nation loves him but he is a shell of a human
4) you will keep looking for a crime even though there isn't on at this point
5) when I pooh-pooh your trumped up crime, I will be blinded
6) even though you don't have a crime and I point that out arguing with me is like eating liquid with a fork.
7) you will keep digging until you find dirt on Trump and that isn't messed up. Is that the country we want to live in?

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moksha
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by moksha » Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:35 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:56 pm
This is why I don't believe in facts.
Seems that you established that some time ago. Don't worry, there are plenty of Trump supporters who also reject the truth.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:49 am

moksha wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:35 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:56 pm
This is why I don't believe in facts.
Seems that you established that some time ago. Don't worry, there are plenty of Trump supporters who also reject the truth.
You guys are always mixing up the idea of facts and Truth. They are not even really related.

dogbite
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by dogbite » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:20 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:54 pm
That whole Mueller thing was a "nothing burger." Presidents have a protection clause for a reason.
[/quote]
False. Presidents can and are charged with actions prior to their assuming office. This is what Mueller investigated. Presidential immunity doesn't apply to actions before assuming office. Sorry, you can't get facts straight when you don't believe in them. Mueller was constrained by department policy--not immunity--set by Trump's appointee. Convenient that.
Biden's order to pull out of Afghanistan killed a lot of people. If he were anything but the president he would have been charged with murder and I have a dozen other things. I definitely think you should be criminally charged except that you can't charge a president so I don't sit here and say he committed crimes.
Biden didn't give this order. Trump signed an agreement with the Taliban in Feb 2020 for the withdrawal of US troops. Biden actually delayed the withdrawal of troops.
Yeah you guys think that because they invented some crimes and published them that he is somehow guilty of them. President can do just about anything he wants.
Not so. As you note elsewhere, anyone can craft an accusation. That might rise to libel or slander if unsubstantiated. Rather in the case of trump, substantive claims have been presented. Criminal prosecutions aren't made on the basis anyone's say so. You have to get the government to pursue the case. This means presenting evidence and facts to investigative authorities, police, prosecuting attorney and so on.

Some of Trumps law suits are civil. Even in these cases, a judge will dismiss the case if they are without merit, i.e. lacking facts and evidence.

hmb
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by hmb » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:31 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:31 am
hmb wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:26 am

No one can answer this...yet. So far, Trump has not been convicted of a crime. He and his organizations are still being investigated. These may reveal criminal activity and they may not. Trump is a despicable shell of a human (yes, an opinion, not fact so you should be okay with it), but still deserves to be treated fairly under the law. No one can “name his crimes” until he’s charged and convicted. If Trump were charged, you would continue to dance around and claim fake fake fake. If he were convicted, your dance would continue because facts don't matter to you. I find your arguments and dialog entertaining, but without any meat. Debating with people like you is like trying to eat liquid jello with a fork. But keep posting your comments, laughter is good medicine.
I'm sorry, but your statement is so messed up.
Well you are entitled to your opinion, but bless your heart.

1) you have no crime
2) even so, Trump is despicable
3) half the nation loves him but he is a shell of a human
4) you will keep looking for a crime even though there isn't on at this point
5) when I pooh-pooh your trumped up crime, I will be blinded
6) even though you don't have a crime and I point that out arguing with me is like eating liquid with a fork.
7) you will keep digging until you find dirt on Trump and that isn't messed up. Is that the country we want to live in?
1) you have no crime
There are plenty of crimes under investigation. It's not over yet.

2) even so, Trump is despicable
Lots of despicable humans have walked this planet, never having been convicted of their behavior.

3) half the nation loves him but he is a shell of a human
I told you that being a shell of a person was my opinion. I suppose you don't believe in opinions now??? I'm not allowed to have one???? I let you have your opinions.

4) you will keep looking for a crime even though there isn't on at this point
Same as number 1, "At this point" means it ain't over...yet!

5) when I pooh-pooh your trumped up crime, I will be blinded
You ARE blinded by dismissing factual evidence, because you don't like it or believe it, or some silly nonsense. So, Yes.

6) even though you don't have a crime and I point that out arguing with me is like eating liquid with a fork.
Correct!! You lack substance or quality. Nothing for a fork to pick up. See number 5.

7) you will keep digging until you find dirt on Trump and that isn't messed up. Is that the country we want to live in?
Same as 1 and 4. I don't need to keep digging for dirt. That is not my job. My responsibility is to pay attention and make informed decisions to vote my conscience. I'm paying attention to the hearings, and other investigations taking place to be informed. Investigation means a formal inquiry or systematic study. You call it digging up dirt. Apples and apples. Again, It's not over yet.
I hope all of the truth comes out. I hope consequences follow the actions of all involved, good and bad. THAT is the country I want to live in.

dogbite
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by dogbite » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:33 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:56 pm
This is why I don't believe in facts. Sure you can print them and they have a certain amount of authority that everyone must accept them but it doesn't mean they're true. If a judge orders a certain verdict than it is a fact and everyone must follow his order but it doesn't make it true.
Those are red herring claims.

The facts of elections are certified by the people running the election. Authorities on the matter are the governments that operated the elections. The first link is a government record of the election. How else would you determine the outcome of any vote except by the people who operate the election? In the case of US elections, they have public oversight and oversight from volunteers from the political parties. The election systems all produce audit trails for review of the election. Many audits were conducted and did not find substantive problems.
The election results might be a fact but they are not true.
And how would you prove that claim?
Biden lost on every count of mattered except the final numbers. He wouldn't have even won his own primary except that the party rigged for him. Bernie would beat him out again but instead he took a bribe.
Interesting, but you have no evidence. What you can assert without evidence I can dismiss without evidence. This is the exact same behavior you claim when we argue that there crimes committed by and in behalf of Trump. You want evidence then. You can't have it both ways. Every investigation into Trump has yielded verified criminal actions by his employees. If it's a witch hunt, then there have been a lot of witches. That Trump is surrounded by criminal activity is highly suggestive of his direction of criminal activity. And like Capone, maybe he'll only get prosecuted for tax evasion. Yet Capone's criminality remains.

dogbite
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by dogbite » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:33 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:49 am
moksha wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:35 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:56 pm
This is why I don't believe in facts.
Seems that you established that some time ago. Don't worry, there are plenty of Trump supporters who also reject the truth.
You guys are always mixing up the idea of facts and Truth. They are not even really related.
Prove it.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:42 pm

dogbite wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:33 am

Interesting, but you have no evidence. What you can assert without evidence I can dismiss without evidence. This is the exact same behavior you claim when we argue that there crimes committed by and in behalf of Trump. You want evidence then. You can't have it both ways. Every investigation into Trump has yielded verified criminal actions by his employees. If it's a witch hunt, then there have been a lot of witches. That Trump is surrounded by criminal activity is highly suggestive of his direction of criminal activity. And like Capone, maybe he'll only get prosecuted for tax evasion. Yet Capone's criminality remains.
It has been long since established that the best indicator of the results of an election is enthusiasm and turn out. People came out and drove across the nation in support of trump. His rallies were overflowing. He was doing three and four rallies a day. Joe Biden was like watching the corpse. He could barely get his security team to make a showing. They never risked showing the crowds around biden's rally.

The night of the election, we went to bed as Trump being president. Somewhere in the night an unexpected amount of votes came in and changed five pivot centers that changed the balance. It was unexpected and unbelievable.

The bellwether counties also indicated the Trump should have won. Obama got the most votes of any president up to that point. Trump got 10 million more than him. Trump got 10 million more than he had the previous time. But somehow Biden came up with 10 million more and Trump did. Again this is completely unrealistic.

I was just watching a post from a girl known as political girl. At first I thought it was satire. She went on about how Trump lied to his followers so that he could stay in office because he was making money. This is completely wrong. It cost Trump almost a billion dollars a year to be president. However his sons and daughter did make some money out of their own businesses. But they provided services that people pay for. Take Obama's daughters who were paid hundreds of millions of dollars simply for being icons and cashing in on their thing. I'm not going to hold that against them because it's not against the law.

Political girl went on about how he lied to us so he could make a hundred million dollars here and 100 million dollars there. She went on about how the government paid him $150 million dollars so that he could stay on his own properties. He often gave his properties for free when he was staying but it still cost money simply to move Air Force One and the security team around. Obama was thought to have spent almost $8 billion dollars during his presidency on simply moving around and personal expenses of keeping and maintaining his safety.

The hatred the people have for Trump is just simply that, hatred. He didn't do anything that can be proven to be against the law. And every time they came after him for something including his two impeachments, it was over stupid stupid stuff. Joe Biden is on live TV talking about how he withheld a billion dollars if the prosecutor would not be fired. That same prosecutor was looking into corruption of his own son. He admits it on TV. Yet because Trump wanted to wait to meet the president of Ukraine before he simply handed over money, was somehow Worthy of impeachment.

The hate at what you guys came after this President is really just shameful. I personally observed Joe Biden doing dirty dealings with Arabs when he was a senator for Delaware. I don't trust him. I don't like him. But I don't hate him. You guys just have hate. I don't hate Satan as much as you guys hate Trump.

dogbite
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by dogbite » Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:51 pm

The votes themselves are the truth of it. They've been audited, tied to valid registered voters who voted. They've been examined in court, by independent auditors. The evidence is against your claims.

Your points do nothing to diminish the record of the votes cast. Trump couldn't win the popular vote either time. And he couldn't carry the electoral college with the votes he did win. That means he lost.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Keeping up with Trump

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:27 pm

Dogbite,

When Trump won the election from Hillary and it was said that Russia had influenced the election, did you believe it? Were you all about the count or you did you think there should be an investigation? Because for two years they dug into the election. Now we knew from the beginning that there was nothing. The investigation was only to try to make Trump look bad. They never even announced what Russian meddling did to the election. The FBI and CIA had told Obama about the Russian meddling before Obama even left office. He gave them a firm, "stop it."

Report never said who the meddling benefited and so most of us assume that it actually benefited Hillary. But I know back then Democrats were not all about the count.

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