Graceful Transfer of Power

Chat about a topic supported by books, TED Talks, podcasts, personal experience, philosophies of mankind mingled with humor (shout out to IOT), and maybe we’ll even do a google hangout or conference call once a month.
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jfro18
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by jfro18 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:15 am

I've been really mad about this the last few days for so many reasons... I spend way more time following politics than I do the church, and my personal twitter account has been fairly involved in politics since 2012... I just can't take some of this anymore.

Watching people try to deflect blame from this is just astonishing to me, and the responses I get on Twitter are just crazy. Sometimes I just don't know what more to say.

I do think they should impeach Trump because if they can remove him that way, he can't run again in 2024 or ever. That said, I can't imagine they would get more than 4 GOP Senators to vote to remove him.

And as Hagoth said - my fire on Twitter especially is as much at the enablers of Trump as Trump himself... people like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz should be forever remembered for this moment because they signed up and promoted it.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:49 am

jfro18 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:15 am
I've been really mad about this the last few days for so many reasons... I spend way more time following politics than I do the church, and my personal twitter account has been fairly involved in politics since 2012... I just can't take some of this anymore.

Watching people try to deflect blame from this is just astonishing to me, and the responses I get on Twitter are just crazy. Sometimes I just don't know what more to say.

I do think they should impeach Trump because if they can remove him that way, he can't run again in 2024 or ever. That said, I can't imagine they would get more than 4 GOP Senators to vote to remove him.

And as Hagoth said - my fire on Twitter especially is as much at the enablers of Trump as Trump himself... people like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz should be forever remembered for this moment because they signed up and promoted it.
enablers? Come on, man, he is our president. This is what want we want from him. The very framework of your mind is insulting. You are merely a river of piss that Joe Biden floats in. I don't mean that, but that is how you guys talk to us. We are not enablers. He is our president. He is a badass and we are badass. For the love of Amerca, stop acting like we are inferior to you.

If you have to "block" someone from winning the trust of the nation, you really need to rethink where you want to live.

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jfro18
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by jfro18 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:54 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:49 am
enablers? Come on, man, he is our president. This is what want we want from him. The very framework of your mind is insulting. You are merely a river of piss that Joe Biden floats in. I don't mean that, but that is how you guys talk to us. We are not enablers. He is our president. He is a badass and we are badass. For the love of Amerca, stop acting like we are inferior to you.

If you have to "block" someone from winning the trust of the nation, you really need to rethink where you want to live.
I'm not sure how to respond to this other than to say that this is what I typically get on Twitter to justify what happened.

The reality is that there was no widespread voter fraud, and Trump spent two months inciting his core base to believe the presidential election was STOLEN from them. Then a lot of prominent Republicans, what I call his enablers, came in to say that the election was illegitimate, unlawful, etc and when pressed they would fall back to "just asking questions."

They knew they were revving people up against the evidence, and they did it anyway because it set people like Hawley and Cruz up to take on the mantle of Trump once he was gone.

Does that make Trump a badass? No, it makes him a whiny narcissist who couldn't believe that the country rejected his message.

I'm sorry if that offends you - I'm not saying Trump voters are inferior to anyone, but I absolutely believe that many prominent Republicans knowingly used baseless conspiracy theories to exploit them.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:32 am

jfro18 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:54 am
The reality is that there was no widespread voter fraud.
Your posts are full of things that I would love to address one by one. And we will do that but we will just do them one at a time as I would fill up the internet with that stuff.

This fragment of sentence here. Who put you in charge of reality? I know we sometimes use that phrase loosely to express an idea. But here we have a case of conflicting realities. I am saying that is a lie. There was wide spread fraud.

It's okay for you to say that there wasn't. In America when we have a conflict we take the issue to court and we have the evidence examined by experts to come up with what can be considered an agreed upon reality.

The truth is that there is no such thing as a common reality. Everyone lives in their own reality. So when we deal with what we might call a shared reality we fight over who gets to be in charge. We come up with ideas to make it fair to everyone. If the power is unbalanced, say a great warrior versus a weaker person, then reality becomes whatever the stronger person says it is.

So when you say to me in a condition like this that the reality is something even though I disagree, it is like a challenge. You were telling me that if I want to have a different aspect of reality introduced into reality that I must fight you. And that is what has happened with America. We have been told what reality is and they don't give a shit what we say.

The question then becomes are you really the stronger person? Not even just the stronger person but the stronger group?

That is what your denial of our request for judgment has created. You simply saying that there is a reality that we have no say in is false. We do have a say. We do not agree with this reality. It may come to bloodshed to decide who gets to be in charge of reality. If we had gotten what we asked, a fair hearing and an examination of the evidence then there would be no room for us to dispute what reality is. It's almost like someone would like us to fight over this. And we will. I don't want to. I would love us to go back to the old-fashioned America where if we had disputes we could take it to court come up with justice. So now we are faced with the choice of rolling over and playing dead and allowing you guys to dictate to us what reality is or fight back.

Yay

hmb
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by hmb » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:37 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:13 pm

I want you to know that there are 70 million plus voters out there who feel betrayed by you. I know you don't understand why. I just want you to know that they feel betrayed.
I think a portion of that 70 million feel betrayed. I think another portion are just deeply disappointed. Then there are some who have flipped altogether and are now angry at Trump. We have all had to deal with disappointment over our lives. The key is to accept and move on. President Trump followed the procedure to challenge the outcome in the courts. When no evidence could be produced and the courts denied his claims time after time, he should have conceded. Republicans should accept defeat and work hard to prepare for the 2024 election. Instead, all this craziness has led to the loss of senate control, further split the party, and caused several deaths. Even if Trump doesn't believe he lost, he finally stated his presidency ends Jan. 20. It's just too bad that it took such extreme measures to finally bring it out. I do hope he's removed from office. Just letting it go sets up a potential for more of the same crazy behavior from either party.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:06 pm

hmb wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:37 pm
SaidNobody wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:13 pm

I want you to know that there are 70 million plus voters out there who feel betrayed by you. I know you don't understand why. I just want you to know that they feel betrayed.
I think a portion of that 70 million feel betrayed. I think another portion are just deeply disappointed. Then there are some who have flipped altogether and are now angry at Trump. We have all had to deal with disappointment over our lives. The key is to accept and move on. President Trump followed the procedure to challenge the outcome in the courts. When no evidence could be produced and the courts denied his claims time after time, he should have conceded. Republicans should accept defeat and work hard to prepare for the 2024 election. Instead, all this craziness has led to the loss of senate control, further split the party, and caused several deaths. Even if Trump doesn't believe he lost, he finally stated his presidency ends Jan. 20. It's just too bad that it took such extreme measures to finally bring it out. I do hope he's removed from office. Just letting it go sets up a potential for more of the same crazy behavior from either party.
The betrayal isn't that we lost. The betrayal is that we tried to find Justice. At every turn the doors of justice were slammed in our face. It is often said with some amount of Glee that all 60 cases brought before the courts were turned away. No evidence they claim. If you don't try the case how do you know?

If we had tried just one of those 60 cases and found it to be unfounded it would have reduced the anger and the feeling of betrayal by 95%. I'm telling you just one case. Anyone of those 60 cases could have been tried and gave people a sense of what the evidence looked like and what the counter evidence was.

It wasn't just the judges that turned the blind eye to our cry for justice. It wasn't just the agencies who failed to begin their investigations. It wasn't just the governors who blocked the investigations into what people claimed was fraud.

It was the gleeful winning that the Democrats showed as every one of our attempts to get justice was refused. We had just gone through four years of Democrats attacking our president and making claims that they could never back up. They had access to the courts. They had over a thousand subpoenas, arrest warrants, interviews, search warrants, millions of pages of evidence, dozens of lawyers paid by the taxpayers, and they still couldn't come up with a single shred of evidence against a crime that wasn't even a crime.

I can understand why they were upset at the loss. They thought that Hillary Clinton was going to win by the margin of 98% to 2%. I can understand why that could have confused a lot of people and upset them.

There are several statistical landmarks that people can use to get an idea of what the election should look like. All of those landmarks gave the election to Trump with a large margin. Perhaps even larger than he actually won. Trump won over 76% of the counties of the United States in 2016. He still lost the popular vote which is kind of explainable because some of the big cities have a lot of people. Trump won 83% of the counties this time. Trump won the Bell weather counties by 16 of 17. Trump won more votes than any other incumbent president. Trump had the enthusiasm of a god on his side.

Trump was winning when we went to bed on November 3rd. Somewhere around 3:00 in the morning things began to happen and counting stations began to close and somehow mysteriously Joe Biden picked up several million votes. He picked him up in cities that Democrats controlled and there was powerful evidence that the Republicans were kicked out of the counting rooms during those hours. There is video of them pounding on the windows and the doors, "let us in." There are sworn oaths of poll workers who say boxes of mail-in ballots that were never folded were being counted. Those should technically be illegal. If the ballot wasn't put in the secret envelope, and then into the name envelope, and then put into the mail or a drop box, it wasn't a mail in ballot.

Between the witnesses and the different accounts and evidences on video and missing chips and computers and different things like that the number of articles that could have been entered into a court has real evidence probably amounted to more than 100,000.

The reason we feel betrayed wasn't because of all of this. The reason we feel betrayed is because when we ask for justice the Democrats turn to blind eye. They did not care that we had questions. In fact they less than cared and they were going to spill blood if necessary to block us from see ing the evidence we asked for. They also cheered with Glee as the courts turned us away.

So when I say that we feel betrayed by you, I'm not talking about the Democrats in general, I'm talking about you. Your attitude towards my right to have answers about the fairness of this election are being denied by your own willful act. You could give a shit less that I ever know what the true counts of this election were. In fact you don't want me to. That's why I feel like you have betrayed us. I was stressed for damn near 2 years watching Democrats declare almost every day that they had a new bombshell to destroy President Trump. I didn't want them to find anything and I didn't want them even to have him on trial. But I knew that it was their right.

You have been part of denying me of my rights. You are unrepentant and you really don't give a shit how I feel about it. That act of betrayal is going to come back at you guys in ways that you really not going to like.

I will never recognize you as the winner as long as our day in court is being denied us. You are cheaters and liars all of you.

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jfro18
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by jfro18 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:47 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:32 am
jfro18 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:54 am
The reality is that there was no widespread voter fraud.
Your posts are full of things that I would love to address one by one. And we will do that but we will just do them one at a time as I would fill up the internet with that stuff.

This fragment of sentence here. Who put you in charge of reality? I know we sometimes use that phrase loosely to express an idea. But here we have a case of conflicting realities. I am saying that is a lie. There was wide spread fraud
You seem upset, but this one is easy.

Donald Trump and his allies are 1-63 in court cases. If there was widespread voter fraud, they would not be 1 and 63 - that is a success rate of 1.6% in court cases, and their one win was to make sure a few thousand votes were not counted.

So you can rant all you want, but if you want to argue there was widespread voter fraud you need to bring the evidence to actually show it. Otherwise it's just a conspiracy theory that has been shot down in court over and over and over and over and over again. (I would do that 63 times but you get the idea)

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deacon blues
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by deacon blues » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:25 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:15 am
I feel for you, SN. And I know several other people who believe similar to what you seen to believe. I have some very kind, Christ like friends who feel strongly that the election was rigged. They also believe Joseph Smith translated the BofM from gold plates and that Russell Nelson talks with God, and while I respect their opinion, I can't agree with it. IMO, those last two opinions are about their faith, their deep seated and well indoctrinated religious faith. What bothers me is when they take that same fervor of religious faith and place it in politics, which is supposed to be more about (at least in this country) governance, debate, compromise, and working toward solutions that are best for all. It's ok to compromise and change your views in the political realm because no one has all the answers and the questions are continually changing. It's not helpful to lock in to one idea or one mindset or one person and follow that blindly. It's particularly important to consider the data, look at the all the information with a critical eye and be open to change. Sure, it's ok to have guiding principals, but you have to be flexible or there is war. I have long resented the polemic us-them nature of the two party system, as much as I resent a stake president telling me what my family goals are. I hate it when I hear democraps or repuliguns say we have to get power from them, or they are this way or that way. The out group homogeneity bias effect is outrageously rampant in politics and it always irritates me.

So I feel for you. I know several people like you. I also know even more people who voted for Trump just because they will always vote conservative. They can't stand the man, but they still voted for him because they are scared of anything not conservative. I feel for them too, because I think they believe they're supposed to vote conservative because of their religion. They will vote Rep even if they have no idea. I know some Dems who do the same. My own liberal daughter, upon voting for the first time this last year (and voting beside me with her mail in ballot), said "I don't know these so I'm just going to vote for the Democrats". I said, whoa there girl! Don't do that. Look it up, read what they are saying. If you still can't decide, just leave it blank. If course I told her that if she votes for Trump she'll be disowned and out of the will (kidding).

I just think, SM, that you're arguments and reasoning are ignorant, and I don't like your heavy use of the straw man and red herring type arguments. It doesn't help your cause IMO. Idk why that lady got shot. Was she breaking the law? Of course she was. Did she deserve to die? Of course not. I don't think she deserved to get shot, just arrested. And like I said before, I don't give a damn what the political persuasions are of the jackasses that stormed and broke into and trashed the Capitol (and I know some only walked around and took selfies), but they broke the law, and it wasn't just a little thing they did wrong either. Some did worse than others, but there was some bad stuff went down. I'm totally fine with a group walking down the street, peacefully holding their signs and spouting whatever batshit crazy bunk they want, and standing outside the capitol singing praises to Adonph Twitler (River you crack me up). What I'm NOT ok with is the president of this nation and his cronies inciting, encouraging, and asking his followers to STOP a constitutionally delineated process. With his lawyer suggesting force. WTF was he thinking? This isn't democracy, but you listen to these people and they seem to really think that they HAVE to storm the Capitol in order to SAVE their freedoms.

It's back to this issue of misinformation. A truck load of people have latched on to an alternate reality, and yes yes, definitely there's another set of people with their teeth locked on to a completely different universe. Neither can fathom the other world. But there is also a large group of people somewhere in the middle trying to get all y'all to take off your goofy glasses and stop looking at the circus mirrors and take a chill for a minute. Extreme thinking with no tolerance for a different view is dangerous.

So.. I'm pissed at Trump. He allowed this.. no, he promoted this. He piled on the kindling and poured on the gas and then lit the match. I expect better from the leader of the free world. I expect him NOT to be an extremist. But... What did I expect? What has he shown us? This is who he is. Before the election even started.. he said if I lose, it's cuz the election is rigged. What's that? There's a term called self handicapping when you make excuses for losing before something even happens... Such as saying, well if I can't make this shot it's because my hand has been hurting. If I don't win this game it's because they cheated. If I win, it's because I'm great, I'm a genius. If you win? You cheated! I think Don is spiraling down fast. His boat is sinking and many of those close to him are jumping out.

Presidents should act better than that. They should also keep their pants on while they're at work. Ain't that right, Bill?!

I think Alas figured it out, though. That Trump is one sneaky genius after all. He has been a Democrap all along! In four short years he destroyed the Rep party to the point that Mormons think Romney is Beelzebub and someone as decrepit and lackluster as Biden can be the president.
Well said, Csnl. 1. I like that you pointed out religion is about feelings, but politics is about power, and needs to be bridled by reason, interaction, and compromise. People who try to combine them are mixing matches and gasoline.
2. I like that you hold Democraps and Republiguns equally responsible for the mess. they have both shown that power will corrupt them.
3. I like that you pointed out the Trump to it to a whole new level. Yes, he did promote the anger, the false hope, the Trump is always right Cult behavior.
4. I agree that the "Trump is Double agent for the Demos" has some validity. The irony should be obvious. But really, Trump is all about Trump. He is the ultimate example of Moral Relativism, and the exact opposite of the Golden Rule. And hopefully the last couple of days showed a few more people how true this is. I think in the future he will screw the Republicans more than the Democrats.
God is Love. God is Truth

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Hagoth
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:42 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:08 am
If you had demonstrated any measure of equal pissed-ness when BLM was burning down the city and murdering cops it might take you seriously. But yeah..... let's move on.
I was EXTREMELY pissed at the people doing that. I was not upset with the peaceful demonstrators, who president Trump was calling terrorists. I was VERY upset with the criminals. I was not upset with the peaceful demonstrators at the capitol. More power to them. But are you telling my I was out of line being upset when people smashed into the capitol, disrupted the rule of law and caused the death of four people? Are you telling me you're ok with that? I don't care whether they were Antifa or Nazis, they were criminals, and hell yes I was pissed.
SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:08 am
I hear in almost every post things like sycophants, enablers, ignorant followers, etc.
The people I'm talking about are not the the decent people of America who are feeling upset and disenfranchised. The people I am very upset with are those who are inventing and spreading conspiracy theories to manipulate and take advantage of others.
SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:08 am
It seems like you haven't heard a single word that I have said. This election was stolen.
And you haven't heard a single word I have said. Why didn't Trump's legal team present any of that evidence? In three major cases when they had the opportunity they chose to withdraw. In the Michigan case where the Republican judge insisted that they take a full day to present all of their evidence what we got was Melissa Corone and a woman who said Chinese people can't be trusted because they all look alike.

Why do you think there is such a disparity between Trump followers who say there are mountains of evidence and the Trump defense who fails to present it? It seems like they either don't think it's good evidence or they are working against you.
[/quote]
SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:08 am
You will not hear it. You block it.
I block it? If you remember at the beginning of this whole thing you asked me if I would change my mind once the evidence was presented and verified. I said yes. I asked you if you would change your mind if it turned out that the evidence was found to be unconvincing and you said no. That's basically what it comes down to. It is the Republican election officials who verified the results of the election. I have nothing to do with it. Those are the people you have your beef with.
SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:08 am
So you walk around for the next 4 years on yourself righteous high horse thinking all these people who are not accepting the election or somehow criminals, this election is a fraud.
No, I think the terrorists who smashed up my nation's capitol building are criminals. I think people who carelessly spread unverified conspiracy theories are dangerous.

I think you have totally missed what it is about this whole thing that I find so deeply disturbing, and I'm sorry that I have failed to communicate that. I think you and I have the same issue here. We both think there are self-serving conmen at work subverting the will of the people and trying to steer our country on a potentially disastrous course. We just can't agree about which side they're on. I just ask you to consider that I have as much right to be upset about that as you do. I am not a lover of the Democrats by any means but I think Donald Trump has put a cancer on our society that has done immeasurable harm. And I blame him for what happened at the capitol. But even more, I blame the politicians and media sources who cleared a path that allowed it to come to this.

ETA: I'm also getting a little bit tired of hearing that the only reason the steal isn't obvious to everyone that the Liberals refused to investigate. You know who had the power to investigate? The Republican-controlled Senate and Department of Justice.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by alas » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:45 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:05 pm
alas wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:24 am
There is a name for where one delusional person convinces those around him that his delusion is real, in spite of much evidence to the contrary. But I think the DSM would short circuit over the current display of mass delusion.
I think the name that you are looking for is "Reality." Whoever can convince the most people of their delusion is the winner.
So, anyway, I think should start the rumor that trump was always and still is a democrat. Just look at all he accomplished for the democrats. He brought them back to power. Nobody could have done a better job of destroying the Republican Party. Nobody.
One of the unexplainable mysteries of this election does swirl around this idea. Trump supposedly lost the election. People predicted the blue wave. But Republicans picked up every toss-up seat. We picked up seats in California that we haven't held in 30 years. Even though Trump will not make it back to the office He has positioned Republicans better than they have been for many years.

He has also started the inevitable question, are Democrats really cheats? There is enough history to answer that question with an affirmative yes. Trump isn't done. I was sweeping up the mess here tonight and realize that there was actually a couple of pieces still on the board. Trump could play a checkmate in the next few weeks, if he wanted to. He saw to that yesterday.

Sometimes I don't know how to answer or address some of the comments that I receive. Believe it or not I actually make an effort to understand the other side.

I have lived through a fair amount of crazy political/religious conflicts. And I understand cult mentality. I understand how communities can lose their power and their resources to shenanigans of tricky politicians or religious leaders.

I come here and hear a comment like "crazy orange man bad" or something like that. And I try to explain why some people might appreciate what he did. I think maybe one person on this board thanked me for my perspective. The rest of you have continued to mock me and my perspective. Which is fine I'm pretty used to it. But what I hear and see here mostly are people who already have the answers even though they don't seem to understand why there is so much anger.

To understand is to forgive. It is a simple law of the universe. That you cannot forgive reveals that you cannot understand. I know that I carry my own bag of unforgiveness, and so I continue to seek understanding.
I wasn’t mocking you. I was just saying how I feel. Has nothing to do with you, I was just talking as if you are not here. So, ignoring you, 100% guilty. Mocking you, nope.

Even trumps’s former lawyer says he is “psychotic,” which isn’t the correct word for trumps mental condition. Psychotics don’t know where they are or when it is, complete break from reality. Trump isn’t that crazy, so he is just delusional. He believes something that is not true and insists on believing it in spite of evidence to the contrary. Trump honestly seems to believe what he is saying about the election, but there is no credible evidence. So, that makes him delusional. If you read ANY reputation all news source, you will see plenty of proof that trump is not telling the truth about the election. You don’t seem to want to believe that, but you are not the only person that I consider a friend who feels that way. Most of my neighbors still are proudly flying Trump flags.

So, on politics, I plan on continuing to just ignore you. I can’t change your thinking, so I will just pretend you are not part of this conversation. I just don’t wish to engage with you, but I do want to share my own feelings.so, back to ignoring you.



Trump is delusional and suffering from narcissistic personality disorder which makes him incapable of accepting that he lost this last election. His inability doesn’t change reality. He lost.

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moksha
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by moksha » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:35 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:42 pm
ETA: I'm also getting a little bit tired of hearing that the only reason the steal isn't obvious to everyone that the Liberals refused to investigate.
I'm tired of hearing about the lies out of Trump's mouth being perpetuated by equally crafty liars. The jig is up, Trump has been exposed for the scoundrel he is, and no amount of Machiavellian pleading will redeem him. Pence, Ted Cruz, and Lindsay Graham have walked away from this would-be dictator who wanted us to abandon our American democracy.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Cnsl1
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by Cnsl1 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:29 am

Donny: I just want to remind you that if I lose this game it's because you cheated. I'm the greatest at this game and I'm going to win easily, but if I don't, it's because you cheated.

Joey: ok

Ref: can we get started now? Game on.

Donny: did you see how I'm crushing you now? It's not even close.

Joey: dude, we just started.

Ref: actually Joey is leading right now.

Donny: of course I'm winning right now. I'm pounding this guy.

Joey: I think I'm doing ok.

Ref: game is over, Joey wins.

Donny: Yay, I won!

Joey: it was close.

Ref: Joey won.

Donny: how could joey possibly have won, I was crushing him. He sucks. He cheated if he won. Everyone knows I won.

Ref: well, let's review the game tapes. Ok, yes, Joey won.

Donny: why can't you just review the game tapes and you'll see how Joey cheated.

Ref: we did that. Joey won.

Donny: everyone, do you see what they're doing here, they're refusing to let us look at the game tape. Joey cheated and they're trying to steal this win.

Ref: we looked at it again, Joey won.

Donny: they won't let our team see the game tape, they cheated. We're just asking let us see the game tape!

Ref: I gave your team the game tape, they said it was a fair game. They found no cheating.

Donny: I fired those guys. Let these other guys look at ALL the game tape.

Ref: sure. Here you go. Let me know if you find any cheating

Donny: Oh, there's cheating all right! You'll see I crushed this guy. There's no way I could lose unless he cheated.

Ref: Your new guys said it looks like a fair game. Joey won.

Joey: Zzzzzzz

Donny: Yay, I won.

Ref: Joey is the winner. I already told you.

Donny: Yes, but when it's time to raise the winner's hand, my hand will be raised. I won and it wasn't even close.

Ref: ok, whatever dude. Wake up, Joey, you won.

Donny: yay, I won!

Joey: Zzzzzzz

Ref: I declare Joey is the winner.

Donny: this is ridiculous! Joey cheated. All I'm asking is to just look at the game tape. Why can't we just look at the game tape?! My whole team is angry. Just look at the game tape. It's not fair to declare Joey the winner when you won't even let us see the game tape! You're taking away our freedom to play the game! I'm taking my ball and going back to my house!!

Ref: you're a lunatic.

Joey: Zzzzzzz

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SaidNobody
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:52 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:42 pm
Missed
There is no doubt that we are talking past each other.

I also believe that you want a free America.

I'm going to stop trying to share my feelings about being betrayed, I can tell you feel it.

hmb
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by hmb » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:57 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:06 pm
hmb wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:37 pm
SaidNobody wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:13 pm

I want you to know that there are 70 million plus voters out there who feel betrayed by you. I know you don't understand why. I just want you to know that they feel betrayed.
I think a portion of that 70 million feel betrayed. I think another portion are just deeply disappointed. Then there are some who have flipped altogether and are now angry at Trump. We have all had to deal with disappointment over our lives. The key is to accept and move on. President Trump followed the procedure to challenge the outcome in the courts. When no evidence could be produced and the courts denied his claims time after time, he should have conceded. Republicans should accept defeat and work hard to prepare for the 2024 election. Instead, all this craziness has led to the loss of senate control, further split the party, and caused several deaths. Even if Trump doesn't believe he lost, he finally stated his presidency ends Jan. 20. It's just too bad that it took such extreme measures to finally bring it out. I do hope he's removed from office. Just letting it go sets up a potential for more of the same crazy behavior from either party.
The betrayal isn't that we lost. The betrayal is that we tried to find Justice. At every turn the doors of justice were slammed in our face. It is often said with some amount of Glee that all 60 cases brought before the courts were turned away. No evidence they claim. If you don't try the case how do you know?
How do you try a case when election fraud is the claim, but as soon as it gets to court, it is no longer election fraud. Was there fraud or not? Why not claim it's fraud under oath and present the evidence? Until there is something to try, it's getting tossed. That isn't my decision, that's reality. I said I would listen to real evidence. I am willing to accept truth. Are you?

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Hagoth
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:05 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:52 am
Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:42 pm
Missed
There is no doubt that we are talking past each other.

I also believe that you want a free America.

I'm going to stop trying to share my feelings about being betrayed, I can tell you feel it.
And please understand that when I vent I am not trying to attack you, I'm just ranting to the universe. Once again I feel like I've said too much, because it really doesn't accomplish anything except get people angry at each other who would probably get along pretty well in real life.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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SaidNobody
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:54 am

alas wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:45 pm


So, on politics, I plan on continuing to just ignore you. I can’t change your thinking, so I will just pretend you are not part of this conversation. I just don’t wish to engage with you, but I do want to share my own feelings.so, back to ignoring you.
::Humph!::
::Spin::
::Cold Shoulder::

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Hagoth
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:09 am

I am very disappointed that some Republican politicians and Fox commentators are already writing this off as just a bunch of crazy kids who just got a little carried away at a party. More Americans died in the US capitol Wednesday than did at Benghazi. They were chanting about hanging the Vice President. People were carrying zip tie handcuffs into the senate chamber. I don't care what these peoples' political affiliations are, they are terrorists and need to be treated as such, as do those who incited them. That includes president, who's message to the terrorists during the siege was, "We love you, you're very special."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by alas » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:25 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:54 am
alas wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:45 pm


So, on politics, I plan on continuing to just ignore you. I can’t change your thinking, so I will just pretend you are not part of this conversation. I just don’t wish to engage with you, but I do want to share my own feelings.so, back to ignoring you.
::Humph!::
::Spin::
::Cold Shoulder::
Oh, I will engage in any other topic with you, just not politics. It is the same rule I have for my neighbors, who fly trump flags, and my sister in law who splatters Facebook with right wing political hatred. I talk to them, just not about politics. See, here I am explaining to you that I wasn’t mocking you, just ignoring your political talk. I can have my opinion and you can have yours and I can express my opinion and it has nothing to do with you. Just I get tired of the double standard where all my neighbors fly their Trump flags and if I put up a “never trump” sign, it would get torn down and all my neighbors are mad at me for having a different opinion. Just getting tired of not being able to state how I feel without a fight. Trump is delusional. His close followers and family, who have had a real chance to see the evidence, if they honestly believe him are also delusional. Some of them know the truth and are doing what they see as politically to their advantage, and they are just crooks, because they know he lost but are doing his bidding anyway. And the rest of his minions, well I don’t know most of them well enough. But according to the people identified at the riot/insurrection they are racists, anti Semitic, anti government, gun rights supporters,National Socialists and other right wing extremists. Most of Trumps followers don’t fall into those extremist groups, but are just conservative Americans. I’ll let you decide if you fall into any of those groups. I don’t think you do.

Read the excellent write up above about the game between Donald and Joey. All the refs agree that Joey won fair and square. When asked how Joey cheated, Donny can’t come up with any real evidence, only conspiracy theories without evidence. That is the reality most of us see.

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MoPag
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by MoPag » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:59 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:47 pm
Captain Moroni quote is part of today's US Capitol Sedition mob take over.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... _capitol/?

Image
Someone interviewed him! :lol: :lol:

https://www.facebook.com/MacGyverDood71 ... 5005484769
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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SaidNobody
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Re: Graceful Transfer of Power

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:45 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:09 am
I am very disappointed that some Republican politicians and Fox commentators are already writing this off as just a bunch of crazy kids who just got a little carried away at a party. More Americans died in the US capitol Wednesday than did at Benghazi. They were chanting about hanging the Vice President. People were carrying zip tie handcuffs into the senate chamber. I don't care what these peoples' political affiliations are, they are terrorists and need to be treated as such, as do those who incited them. That includes president, who's message to the terrorists during the siege was, "We love you, you're very special."
Please rest assured that we are very disappointed in you too.

I'm not really sure where you fall on the spectrum of the political parties. In my neighborhood we are afraid to put up stickers or signs for our support of our chosen president. Our property and our cars will be vandalized. People are straight up attacked or even stabbed sometimes over wearing Trump paraphernalia.

If you ever see a group of rowdy Republicans it's probably at a beer party or at a shooting range. We don't usually go into public and act out. I know that if you stick with mainstream media you haven't seen any of the video where conservative speakers have been attacked, shouted down, had things thrown at them. One of our favorite commentators known as Lindsey Bennett was raped on a college campus because of her views. Another of our favorites, Candice Owens, was also attacked. Most high-profile conservatives travel with bodyguards.

Just because you're angry doesn't justify the kind of stupid shit you tend to do. But when you take a moment and look at why people might be angry you might see that it is justified. I do understand there is a large difference between being justified at being angry and justifying what you do when you're angry.

When George Floyd was killed I understood why a lot of people of color were angry. I could sense the frustration reaching back a hundred years. But it wasn't people of color, for the most part, that went around burning down their neighborhoods and killing the cops. Yes, they were angry and they shouted and maybe even through stuff and looted stores. Not sure why you need an extra TV when somebody gets killed but, that's their thing. But it was the white agitators and the white liberals who came into their cities and drove their anger throughout the rest of the country like a poison. It didn't fix anything. People said that there would be more equality and justice and so they defunded the police departments that were protecting these people. Murders are through the roof in most of these major cities.

I knew going to DC was not a smart idea. I don't live that far away. I could have been there in an hour and a half. With political events you become a pawn in other people's game, just like these folks did.

I have seen at least one video taken by a guard on the roof that showed people specifically Antifa knocking out the windows of the building. They weren't even wearing Trump paraphernalia but the traditional black clothing with the black helmet and the black backpack. Does that actually make them Antifa? I'm sure they don't have it on the resume, but to me it's good enough.

People being incited to move on the building could be written off as half a dozen very human emotions. These people are not terrorists. They all have jobs at home and probably children that depend upon them in some way or another.

I personally am sick of hearing about the Republican terrorists and how Trump gased the peaceful protesters so that he could hold up the Bible in front of the church. I watched that event live on TV and there was no gasing of anybody. Later some clips were merged in with it to give it a different feel. Would probably more than 50 different professional cameramen swirling around the president as he walked you would have caught some better images of the gassing. The people there were the same protesters who had started the church on fire and had been ordered to disperse the night before. The witnesses who were there, not the lying media, but officials that were protecting the president insist that no one was hurt for the reasons of getting the president there. They were cleared out before the president went there and for reasons of breaking curfews and laws. I also watch those peaceful protesters throw dangerous objects at secret police defending the front line. several officers were wounded and had to be taken off the field. They were throwing frozen bottles of water and bricks.

On a rash decision, as Trump is often known to do, saw an opportunity to go to the church and give his message to the faithful. The people were not cleared out because he was going there, Trump went there because the people were cleared out. It might be a subtle difference but it is an important. No people were harmed in the holding of the Trump Bible. That he had it upside down is a little bit awkward, but understandable.

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