Church and Politics

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moksha
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Church and Politics

Post by moksha » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:57 pm

Thoughts too rough for the delicate sensibilities of the Doctrinal Discussion forum? Post them here:
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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River Morgan2
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by River Morgan2 » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:18 am

alas wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:32 pm
There is a REASON educated people are more liberal and it isn’t lack of faith.
To me, this gets to the heart of any political or religious discussion. (Or science, or healthcare, or housing, or ....)

Educated people, by and large, are taught how to use critical thinking and to search for unbiased sources. Most of them have also been exposed to a myriad of diverse personalities and thinking.

I grew up in a very small, very insular culture. My opinions were rock solid and I believed that there was my opinion and the wrong one. Then I went to work for a very large organization that employed a lot of diverse personalities and required critical thinking. Let's just say that my first year was not easy and leave it at that!

If I hadn't loved my job, and adapted quickly, I wouldn't have survived. Adapt, migrate, or die. I had to learn how to appreciate the diversity of opinions that were being presented, and how to sort through the dross to obtain the facts.

I am NOT highly educated. But I am also no longer exposed to just one mindset either. And to me, that is the major problem with Trump fans and TBM's both. One mindset.

JMO.

River
Every time you find humor in a difficult situation, you win. -Snoopy

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SaidNobody
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by SaidNobody » Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:30 am

River Morgan2 wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:18 am
alas wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:32 pm
There is a REASON educated people are more liberal and it isn’t lack of faith.
To me, this gets to the heart of any political or religious discussion. (Or science, or healthcare, or housing, or ....)

Educated people, by and large, are taught how to use critical thinking and to search for unbiased sources. Most of them have also been exposed to a myriad of diverse personalities and thinking.

I grew up in a very small, very insular culture. My opinions were rock solid and I believed that there was my opinion and the wrong one. Then I went to work for a very large organization that employed a lot of diverse personalities and required critical thinking. Let's just say that my first year was not easy and leave it at that!

If I hadn't loved my job, and adapted quickly, I wouldn't have survived. Adapt, migrate, or die. I had to learn how to appreciate the diversity of opinions that were being presented, and how to sort through the dross to obtain the facts.

I am NOT highly educated. But I am also no longer exposed to just one mindset either. And to me, that is the major problem with Trump fans and TBM's both. One mindset.

JMO.

River
I disagree. With the one mindset idea.

The reason people who are educated get along so well is because they are educated by the same system. I too grew up in an isolated and small environment. We all thought our opinions were the same as God's. We got along pretty well. Until somebody got a hair up their butt and interpreted a comma in the scriptures a little bit different. Brought the whole system down.

Education system is just like that. It's a little more broad with a lot more subjects and what I learned in my town. But it's the same attitude in the same spirit. If your opinion isn't approved it's not the right one. I am a high school dropout and for some reason that fits everybody's opinion about what Trump supporters do. I don't think I'm stupid. I don't think I am unable of finding out information or empathizing with people.

Cults and religions are a socialist type government. They work very well for small groups and for people who believe like them. But for a great state like America you cannot have that kind of thinking. What seems like compassion in a great state such as America quickly turns into control over the people. Maybe you thought you were helping them out but later you realize they were merely chains on their soul.

I am not stupid. I'm going to say that perhaps a few times because oh my God you would not believe how many times a day some well-educated liberal person needs to remind me of that. But I have learned not to accept group think as the full solution. I know how to get along with people. I would rather be an asshole than get along with people at the expense of my own freedom and personality. You can ask almost anyone in my hometown If I wasn't one of the nicest kids they ever knew. It doesn't work in the real world. People are not going to do what you think they're going to do which makes it confusing. And you find out later that they don't have to do it the way you thought they should.

Educated people in America are some of the sweetest people I know but I could show you where their compassion is poison most of the time. It doesn't help people it hurts them. Everyone wants to be a savior. It's purely encoded into our DNA. But it is a feeling we must resist when we are dealing with free people. You can make aware that your services are available. You can make aware that you are willing to help. But when you come in and take over for them it is such damage to their personality and to their soul that they may never recover.

I could lay out thousands of facts, God forbid, that show where people in America have failed where immigrants later coming from the same country have thrived. The Chaldeans from Iraq, where they were starving and dying have come to America to become one of the wealthiest people in the world. They are not arrogant or boastful simply rich. No one gave them handouts when they got here. they weren't even that much wanted in the neighborhoods they showed up in. But they have thrived like no other people and they never took handouts from anyone.

America was a place where you could come and hard work and dedication could make you wealthy. It is now a place where you can get handouts and it will destroy you and your family's line. They will never have ambition again.

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moksha
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by moksha » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:13 pm

America was a place where you could come and hard work and dedication could make you wealthy. It is now a place where you can get handouts and it will destroy you and your family's line. They will never have ambition again.
Archy Bunker used to say that exact same thing.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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SaidNobody
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by SaidNobody » Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:26 pm

moksha wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:13 pm
America was a place where you could come and hard work and dedication could make you wealthy. It is now a place where you can get handouts and it will destroy you and your family's line. They will never have ambition again.
Archy Bunker used to say that exact same thing.
It's a recurring theme in conservative theory.

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Hagoth
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by Hagoth » Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:04 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:26 pm
moksha wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:13 pm
America was a place where you could come and hard work and dedication could make you wealthy. It is now a place where you can get handouts and it will destroy you and your family's line. They will never have ambition again.
Archy Bunker used to say that exact same thing.
It's a recurring theme in conservative theory.
Reminds me of a conversation I overheard between two very conservative guys in the checkout line. They were bitching about how Asians come over here and take jobs away from deserving white people. My father-in-law came to this country from China with nothing. He worked 18 hour days, 7-day weeks for years in the face of nonstop oppression and bigotry. He earned a Purple Heart for wounds he received in a foxhole in WWII. Eventually he built his own business out of sheer sweat and did very well. I know many other Asian Americans who have achieved a lot, but only because they were willing to work twice as hard as everyone else.

I attend university classes in my second college career. You know who skips the parties, the games, the raves? Who actually reads the textbooks, takes advantage of professor and TA mentoring hours, studies hard for the exams, and puts in far more effort than the average white American student? Yup. Well, actually, it's the Asian kids AND the old guys :D . America is still a place where you can come and work hard and achieve amazing things.

The secret is the work hard part.

Sorry, kinda went off on a tangent there, but this is something that is very close to my heart. (BTW I am so Scandinavian I get sunburn from a 40 watt bulb).
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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River Morgan2
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by River Morgan2 » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:45 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:04 am
...My father-in-law came to this country from China with nothing. He worked 18 hour days, 7-day weeks for years in the face of nonstop oppression and bigotry. ...Sorry, kinda went off on a tangent there, but this is something that is very close to my heart. (BTW I am so Scandinavian I get sunburn from a 40 watt bulb).
Yay for "mixed" marriages! 🎉🎊👏

Scandinavian / German / Celtic here. 🙋‍♀️

I have nieces and nephews who are part Latino, or part First Nations, or part black. But mostly they are just all my family! And I love them all dearly!

And at least once during each reunion I think of what our entire family would have missed if we had adhered to the rule my parents were raised with, that LDS church members should only marry people of their own race!

Our whole family would have been totally different and I would have missed so many wonderful personalities!

River
Every time you find humor in a difficult situation, you win. -Snoopy

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moksha
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by moksha » Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:04 pm

River Morgan2 wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:45 pm
... that LDS church members should only marry people of their own race!

Our whole family would have been totally different and I would have missed so many wonderful personalities!

River
Utah struck down its miscegenation law in 1963 because of the quandary posed by former LDS missionaries and LDS servicemen marrying brides outside the Mormon race. Loving v. Virginia removed this law from the rest of the United States (the American South) in 1967.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by Hagoth » Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:35 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:04 pm
Loving v. Virginia removed this law from the rest of the United States (the American South) in 1967.
Utah was only slightly ahead of the curve. The Anti-miscegenation law was repealed here in 1963. We were married in 1990. If we had been born 27 years earlier our marriage would have been illegal. Good thing there was no seed of Cain, or we might have been looking at decapitation. But fortunately apostle Mark E. Petersen expounded on the mercy of God:
Let us consider the great mercy of God for a moment. A Chinese, born in China with a dark skin, and with all of the handicaps of that race seems to have little opportunity, but think of the mercy of God to Chinese people who are willing to accept the Gospel. In spite of whatever they might have done in the pre-existence to justify being born over there as Chinamen, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives they can have the Priesthood, go to the temple and receive endowments and sealings, and that means they can have exaltation. Isn’t
the mercy of God marvelous?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by moksha » Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:11 pm

In spite of whatever they might have done in the pre-existence to justify being born over there as Chinamen...
Makes you wonder whether Mark E. Peterson had his inspiration drained and replaced with crude oil before each speech.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Cnsl1
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by Cnsl1 » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:17 am

Re: education

You obviously cannot assume all educated people are of any particular type or nature, good, bad, ugly, or otherwise.

The same with high school dropouts.

We do tend to believe those who aren't in our group are more alike than they really are--the outgroup homogeneity effect.

You also cannot correctly assume all educated people are taught a certain way, brainwashed by the academic elite, or trained to be liberal. Just like educated folks cannot correctly assume that highschool dropouts are ignorant, low intelligence, and probably got held back at least once in school (although that one is a pretty high correlate, so if you have to assume something, that one is a safer bet).

What education provides is different opinions, different viewpoints, critical analysis, new information, new ideas, as well as how to analyze and critique data. How to test your own theories. Science then, is not some preset mold of ideas and theories, but rather this continually growing mass of knowledge that continuously tweaks and grows based on learning from what's been done and then seeking to know more. Testing your ideas. Challenging your assumptions and biases.

I think that sometimes a natural effect of exposure to other ideas helps one become more accepting of those who have the different ideas.

That being said, once we're in our comfort zone, we tend to like to stay there, no matter how educated you are or are not. Continual learning and pushing yourself to think beyond your own box can be difficult, especially when Netflix has a show you can binge watch over the holidays. But without challenge, there's little growth.. and cognitive exercise might be as important as physical exercise in regards to our longevity and health.

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Hagoth
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by Hagoth » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:56 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:17 am
Re: education

You obviously cannot assume all educated people are of any particular type or nature, good, bad, ugly, or otherwise.

The same with high school dropouts.

We do tend to believe those who aren't in our group are more alike than they really are--the outgroup homogeneity effect.

You also cannot correctly assume all educated people are taught a certain way, brainwashed by the academic elite, or trained to be liberal. Just like educated folks cannot correctly assume that highschool dropouts are ignorant, low intelligence, and probably got held back at least once in school (although that one is a pretty high correlate, so if you have to assume something, that one is a safer bet).

What education provides is different opinions, different viewpoints, critical analysis, new information, new ideas, as well as how to analyze and critique data. How to test your own theories. Science then, is not some preset mold of ideas and theories, but rather this continually growing mass of knowledge that continuously tweaks and grows based on learning from what's been done and then seeking to know more. Testing your ideas. Challenging your assumptions and biases.

I think that sometimes a natural effect of exposure to other ideas helps one become more accepting of those who have the different ideas.

That being said, once we're in our comfort zone, we tend to like to stay there, no matter how educated you are or are not. Continual learning and pushing yourself to think beyond your own box can be difficult, especially when Netflix has a show you can binge watch over the holidays. But without challenge, there's little growth.. and cognitive exercise might be as important as physical exercise in regards to our longevity and health.
Very well stated, Cnsl. Also, the scientific method is more flexible than what they teach in school. If all scientists strictly followed the textbook definition as a step-by-step doctrine we would have missed a lot of things. Creativity is required, and the ability to look at things from multiple points of view.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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SaidNobody
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:27 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:04 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:26 pm
moksha wrote:
Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:13 pm

Archy Bunker used to say that exact same thing.
It's a recurring theme in conservative theory.
Reminds me of a conversation I overheard between two very conservative guys in the checkout line. They were bitching about how Asians come over here and take jobs away from deserving white people. My father-in-law came to this country from China with nothing. He worked 18 hour days, 7-day weeks for years in the face of nonstop oppression and bigotry. He earned a Purple Heart for wounds he received in a foxhole in WWII. Eventually he built his own business out of sheer sweat and did very well. I know many other Asian Americans who have achieved a lot, but only because they were willing to work twice as hard as everyone else.

I attend university classes in my second college career. You know who skips the parties, the games, the raves? Who actually reads the textbooks, takes advantage of professor and TA mentoring hours, studies hard for the exams, and puts in far more effort than the average white American student? Yup. Well, actually, it's the Asian kids AND the old guys :D . America is still a place where you can come and work hard and achieve amazing things.

The secret is the work hard part.

Sorry, kinda went off on a tangent there, but this is something that is very close to my heart. (BTW I am so Scandinavian I get sunburn from a 40 watt bulb).
Ignorance comes into two basic types.

1) Pandemic shut down kind, and
2) Pulling the Trogan Horse into your city kind.

I think everyone leans one way or the other.

But you bring up a point of discussion.

The sense of entitlement is mostly what racism is about.

The 1638 Maryland Doctrine of Exclusion sort of sums up racism. It's the idea that you are entitled to a resource over another.

However, this is tricky because sometimes you are entitled. Like if you own a house, you are entitled to it. If you are a member of the country club you are entitled to those benefits. If you are a citizen you are entitled to certain benefits. And these would all be appropriate. However, we have decided that race isn't a reason to be entitled to resources. At least that is the general idea.

Since there are aspects of entitlement that are legitimate you cannot automatically demonize people for advocating for their rights. However, I think it is fair to expect that entitled to citizens be clear about their complaints.

For example, my brother-in-law is a drywall contractor here in Pennsylvania. He is constantly being undercut by Mexican illegal immigrants became they don't have to pay things like worker comp, insurance, taxes, etc. He is required to follow the rules and it costs him. Oddly, he has the same problem with Amish workers who are legal citizens. His complaint isn't about race, or even about legit entitlement but rather fair play for resources.

Complaining about people that have equal rights to resources just because of their race is racist.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by SaidNobody » Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:21 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:17 am
Re: education

You obviously cannot assume all educated people are of any particular type or nature, good, bad, ugly, or otherwise.

The same with high school dropouts.

We do tend to believe those who aren't in our group are more alike than they really are--the outgroup homogeneity effect.

You also cannot correctly assume all educated people are taught a certain way, brainwashed by the academic elite, or trained to be liberal. Just like educated folks cannot correctly assume that highschool dropouts are ignorant, low intelligence, and probably got held back at least once in school (although that one is a pretty high correlate, so if you have to assume something, that one is a safer bet).

What education provides is different opinions, different viewpoints, critical analysis, new information, new ideas, as well as how to analyze and critique data. How to test your own theories. Science then, is not some preset mold of ideas and theories, but rather this continually growing mass of knowledge that continuously tweaks and grows based on learning from what's been done and then seeking to know more. Testing your ideas. Challenging your assumptions and biases.

I think that sometimes a natural effect of exposure to other ideas helps one become more accepting of those who have the different ideas.

That being said, once we're in our comfort zone, we tend to like to stay there, no matter how educated you are or are not. Continual learning and pushing yourself to think beyond your own box can be difficult, especially when Netflix has a show you can binge watch over the holidays. But without challenge, there's little growth.. and cognitive exercise might be as important as physical exercise in regards to our longevity and health.-* :roll:
Ccsl1,

This is my kind of logic. And I basically agree.

I understand that not all people are educated the same. However, the differences are tolerated less and less. For example, a guy that I knew was educated in African studies and American. He would argue that world population had always been around 2 to 4 billion people throughout the last 10,000 years. He considered this a matter of fact. He had a doctorate degree from the University of Illinois. He was considered educated and I was considered uneducated. But I definitely had my opinion.

The thing I loved about Mormonism and Joseph Smith in general was his take on education. He was said to have had a third grade education. He made the comment that true intelligence was the ability to live the gospel. Every day that I marched closer to meeting my maker I realize how true those words are. I would rather someone have the functionality of how to get along with people and still raise kids of quality, that they were confident in themselves. I am so sick of seeing children break down in fits of anxiety and panic attacks. It's as if none of them know how to cope with reality. I know a lot of it has to do with environmental factors such as outside stimulation and food.

But someone who knows how to purify the environment so to speak so that the kids are not exposed to toxic social beliefs or even toxics environmental situations has to be a stable genius. I have to send my kid into the world knowing full well that her friends are doing drugs or that their families are. Or that at age 11 and 12 are already sexually active. She gets tired of me asking her how things are going? Has she tried drugs or been tempted to? But I live the certain horror that there is nothing I can do to keep her away from them. They are simply everywhere. They come into the classrooms and into the bathrooms and then to her friends rooms and just simply everywhere.

Somehow all of the education in America hasn't solved some of the most simple and most drastic problems. The education of English, science, or even mathematics could all wait another couple of thousand years as far as I'm concerned. Because if the society destroys your child through drugs or inappropriate behavior what did any of it even matter?

Cnsl1
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by Cnsl1 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:37 am

So, SN, you're proposing America stops teaching children English, Math, and science, and instead teaches them how to get along better and help one another? Sort of the "everything I ever really needed to know I learned in kindergarten" approach?

Goodness, that sounds pretty liberal, dude.

And, I did not get how your anecdotal tale of the doctor who thought the world has had lots of people for lots of years has anything to do with growing intolerance of different ideas.

And I thought Joseph's take on education was to accumulate as much of it as possible until you die, because knowledge was the only thing you could take with you. Maybe that's why he said God designed some auditory and visual memory tests that everyone needed to pass after they die in order to get to the best heaven.

The glory of God is intelligence, he said. But then he also said that the glory of God was to bring to pass the eternal life of man (if you interpret the work being to bring to pass the immortality of man).

So, if A=B, and A=C, does intelligence equal eternal life?

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Re: Church and Politics

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:07 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:37 am
So, SN, you're proposing America stops teaching children English, Math, and science, and instead teaches them how to get along better and help one another? Sort of the "everything I ever really needed to know I learned in kindergarten" approach?

Goodness, that sounds pretty liberal, dude.

And, I did not get how your anecdotal tale of the doctor who thought the world has had lots of people for lots of years has anything to do with growing intolerance of different ideas.

And I thought Joseph's take on education was to accumulate as much of it as possible until you die, because knowledge was the only thing you could take with you. Maybe that's why he said God designed some auditory and visual memory tests that everyone needed to pass after they die in order to get to the best heaven.

The glory of God is intelligence, he said. But then he also said that the glory of God was to bring to pass the eternal life of man (if you interpret the work being to bring to pass the immortality of man).

So, if A=B, and A=C, does intelligence equal eternal life?
You know I wasn't suggesting that we not teach the three R's.

I'm suggesting that functional society is more important. We have government discouraging functional Family systems in order to gain advantage over pushing government approved education. And Government approved education equals messed up families, IMHO.

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Re: Church and Politics

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:42 pm

Interesting discussion. I am fairly liberal minded but was raised by extremely conservative parents. My inability to reconcile the conservative viewpoint with the gospel was a notch in my shelf early on.

Interestingly, leaving the church was freeing for my existing views instead of changing them. It seems the stereotype is people leave the church and become raving liberals--and that stereotype is then used to discount liberal views.

In the last few years, I've read three books that all helped me refine my understanding of the moral/political dialectic:

-the Righteous Mind by Haidt. Discusses the formation of political, social, and religious morals from their context (western, education, income, etc).

-Factfulness. Demonstrates with examples how our truths that we see as cultural are contextual and often more financial than moral.

-Debt the first 5000 years by Graeber. How the development of currency influences culture, religion, relationships, slavery, laws, etc.

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Re: Church and Politics

Post by SaidNobody » Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:54 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:42 pm
Interesting discussion. I am fairly liberal minded but was raised by extremely conservative parents. My inability to reconcile the conservative viewpoint with the gospel was a notch in my shelf early on.

Interestingly, leaving the church was freeing for my existing views instead of changing them. It seems the stereotype is people leave the church and become raving liberals--and that stereotype is then used to discount liberal views.

In the last few years, I've read three books that all helped me refine my understanding of the moral/political dialectic:

-the Righteous Mind by Haidt. Discusses the formation of political, social, and religious morals from their context (western, education, income, etc).

-Factfulness. Demonstrates with examples how our truths that we see as cultural are contextual and often more financial than moral.

-Debt the first 5000 years by Graeber. How the development of currency influences culture, religion, relationships, slavery, laws, etc.
Thoughtful,

Thank you for joining the conversation.

I am going to be honest with you. I am not even sure what liberal means. I did research conservatism because my thoughts took me in that direction. My research wasn't in any way to invalidate other points of view.

My research into conservatism however did expose to me what we call the Left and the Right.

Legend hasn't that when libertarian philosophies were being discussed back in the 1750s that there were a group of people sitting in what we might call a parliament of sorts. People sat on the left and on the right. Where they sat defines our politics today. This happened mostly in France but some of the American founding fathers happen to be there.

Libertarianism was pretty much the common philosophy of all of them. But there was one small group who had a hair up their butt and suggested the idea of separation of church and state. This meant that the affairs of state would be a different government then that and of those people who run the church.

This little difference in the philosophy of libertarianism caused a little bit of a split among the group. The left thought that church and state should remain somewhat integrated. This called for the policing of thoughts and beliefs. This called for the state governing the morality the people to some degree.

The founding fathers that were in those debates came to America and when the time came introduced their ideas of the separation of the church and the state. I think this has been what has made America so successful.

The left continues to push the idea that the state should take over more and more of what should be considered church. Church is basically the idea of all things imagined. Things such as salvation and righteousness and marriage, etc. Now those things might even include gender identity. If I don't like what you believe I can either leave the church or maybe you can. But I don't have to submit to your beliefs.

This is changing more and more. Things such as gender identity which are really things of the imagination are being pushed upon the public as fact when in truth they are faith.

There are principles of survival in the thinking of the separation of the church and state. Whatever these two forces have married 9into one the result has been disastrous. But it is happening more and more every day. The people will not tolerate this and they never have. With separation of church and state We agree to a basic set of rules under which we will have justice and commerce and then the state stays out of our business.

People think that because I am a right side thinker that I am somehow cruel. I was making fun the other day how rich we have become. When my daughter has for something there is no reason financially for me to forbid it. Yet I know that simply giving her everything she asked for would be a disaster. I make her work for it or negotiate. So that she knows how to get the things she needs on her own skill and merit.

America has become rich in many ways but we cannot afford to simply give people everything they need where we will destroy their spirit and thus the spirit of our country.

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Re: Church and Politics

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:21 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 8:54 am
Thoughtful wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:42 pm
Interesting discussion. I am fairly liberal minded but was raised by extremely conservative parents. My inability to reconcile the conservative viewpoint with the gospel was a notch in my shelf early on.

Interestingly, leaving the church was freeing for my existing views instead of changing them. It seems the stereotype is people leave the church and become raving liberals--and that stereotype is then used to discount liberal views.

In the last few years, I've read three books that all helped me refine my understanding of the moral/political dialectic:

-the Righteous Mind by Haidt. Discusses the formation of political, social, and religious morals from their context (western, education, income, etc).

-Factfulness. Demonstrates with examples how our truths that we see as cultural are contextual and often more financial than moral.

-Debt the first 5000 years by Graeber. How the development of currency influences culture, religion, relationships, slavery, laws, etc.
Thoughtful,

Thank you for joining the conversation.

I am going to be honest with you. I am not even sure what liberal means. I did research conservatism because my thoughts took me in that direction. My research wasn't in any way to invalidate other points of view.

My research into conservatism however did expose to me what we call the Left and the Right.

Legend hasn't that when libertarian philosophies were being discussed back in the 1750s that there were a group of people sitting in what we might call a parliament of sorts. People sat on the left and on the right. Where they sat defines our politics today. This happened mostly in France but some of the American founding fathers happen to be there.

Libertarianism was pretty much the common philosophy of all of them. But there was one small group who had a hair up their butt and suggested the idea of separation of church and state. This meant that the affairs of state would be a different government then that and of those people who run the church.

This little difference in the philosophy of libertarianism caused a little bit of a split among the group. The left thought that church and state should remain somewhat integrated. This called for the policing of thoughts and beliefs. This called for the state governing the morality the people to some degree.

The founding fathers that were in those debates came to America and when the time came introduced their ideas of the separation of the church and the state. I think this has been what has made America so successful.

The left continues to push the idea that the state should take over more and more of what should be considered church. Church is basically the idea of all things imagined. Things such as salvation and righteousness and marriage, etc. Now those things might even include gender identity. If I don't like what you believe I can either leave the church or maybe you can. But I don't have to submit to your beliefs.

This is changing more and more. Things such as gender identity which are really things of the imagination are being pushed upon the public as fact when in truth they are faith.

There are principles of survival in the thinking of the separation of the church and state. Whatever these two forces have married 9into one the result has been disastrous. But it is happening more and more every day. The people will not tolerate this and they never have. With separation of church and state We agree to a basic set of rules under which we will have justice and commerce and then the state stays out of our business.

People think that because I am a right side thinker that I am somehow cruel. I was making fun the other day how rich we have become. When my daughter has for something there is no reason financially for me to forbid it. Yet I know that simply giving her everything she asked for would be a disaster. I make her work for it or negotiate. So that she knows how to get the things she needs on her own skill and merit.

America has become rich in many ways but we cannot afford to simply give people everything they need where we will destroy their spirit and thus the spirit of our country.
Have you read any of the books I mentioned? Would love to hear your view.

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SaidNobody
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Re: Church and Politics

Post by SaidNobody » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:10 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 9:21 pm

Have you read any of the books I mentioned? Would love to hear your view.
I have not read them. I read the back cover to get an understanding of what the books are about. Without reading them I would think I'd have some understanding of what they are trying to say. It sounds like I have come to some of the same conclusions.

If you have some points that you would like to discuss or have my all self-proclaimed great opinion on, I would be happy to share. But unfortunately I probably won't take the time to read three fairly lengthy books to simply give a book review.

But like with the righteous mind. I think I understand what it is trying to say. Reasoning is something that we do in a safer environment. Most of the time we are going from our gut feeling of things. But I was discussing this on another thread. We have great senses and perspectives that are part of our subconscious. For example while humans are considered fairly insensitive we actually have the smell almost equivalent to that of a dog. But we suppress much of that information because it would be overwhelming. Just like when my hound goes outside to use the bathroom there are about 700 spots he needs to check out before he does his business. The sense of smell is simply overwhelming to him and cannot be ignored.

Humans have much of those same powers except we suppress them from our conscious mind. But that information is in the subconscious mind. Maybe there is something in the air that we smell and causes us to feel uneasy and to be extra cautious.

Our choices are made by these instincts Before we even know that there are choices to be made.

Liberals come from a philosophy that it is better to take care of your neighbor. There is nothing wrong with this philosophy except for how deep do we take it.

Conservatives are more about developing the spirit from within. Christ says that healing comes from within. Taking care of someone may cripple their ability to find that fighting spirit to take care of themselves. As American culture grows richer our youth continue to live in their parents basement because they have no ambition to go out on their own. They have had everything given to them and so it only makes sense that that's how the world should work.

Consciousness always makes the right choice.

The primary drive of life is love or desire. The only thing that consciousness need justify an action with is its own desire. Do I want that? That is the only justification consciousness needs.

However, as consciousness grows and begins to want more complex things things such as kindness and respect become critical to achieving the desired thing. In the old days the idea of the romance between a slave and the master wasn't unheard of. In modern times no one can conceive that that is a valid relationship. For there to be true love there must be equality and respect. Because the soul desires these things it must up its game and find ways that are more complex to get what it desires. Thus all of the social rules of honor and dignity become necessities for the soul to obtain what it wants.

But the simple formula is that consciousness always makes the right choice giving the information that it has and the desires it needs to fulfill.

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