LDS History in Arizona

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moksha
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LDS History in Arizona

Post by moksha » Sun Jan 17, 2021 9:31 pm

PHOENIX — The Senate Government Committee voted 6-1 Wednesday in favor of establishing a memorial on the Arizona Governmental Mall for a man who helped to plan and carry out the mass murder of over 120 people.

According to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, John D. Lee was an LDS major in the militia of Iron County, Utah, when he led the attack on a caravan of settlers from Arkansas who were traveling through Utah to reach California. On September 7, 1857, Lee, around 50 fellow Mormon militiamen and a contingent of Paiute Native Americans attacked the wagon train of the Baker-Fancher Party at a place called Mountain Meadows.

Over the course of four days, Lee and his men laid siege to the circled wagons and the families within. After a fake truce that lowered the guard of the settlers, the attackers killed all of the men, women and children above the age of seven, leaving their bodies out to be eaten by wild animals, according to information from the National Parks Service.

Years later, Lee fled to Arizona where he built a ferry service at a crossing point in the Grand Canyon, subsequently known as Lee’s Ferry, according to the National Parks Service. He lived there with his two wives and children until 1877, where he was tried, convicted, and executed by firing squad for his role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. He was the only person to be punished for the attack.

Rep. Brenda Barton (R-Payson) introduced HB 2509 to build a monument to Lee right here at the Capitol, with the bell from the Lee’s Ferry church tower installed somewhere on the Mall.

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/201 ... -murderer/
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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SaidNobody
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by SaidNobody » Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:16 am

I remember going here when I was about 15. One of my mothers showed me a grave that was dated much later, I think in 1890s, that she claimed was the real gravestone for John D Lee. I don't remember all the details, but Brigham Young supposedly helped fake the execution.

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Red Ryder
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:11 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:16 am
I remember going here when I was about 15. One of my mothers showed me a grave that was dated much later, I think in 1890s, that she claimed was the real gravestone for John D Lee. I don't remember all the details, but Brigham Young supposedly helped fake the execution.
One of your mothers? Is there a background story I missed SN? Were you raised in a polygamous family? Truly interested here...
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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SaidNobody
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by SaidNobody » Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:54 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:11 pm
SaidNobody wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:16 am
I remember going here when I was about 15. One of my mothers showed me a grave that was dated much later, I think in 1890s, that she claimed was the real gravestone for John D Lee. I don't remember all the details, but Brigham Young supposedly helped fake the execution.
One of your mothers? Is there a background story I missed SN? Were you raised in a polygamous family? Truly interested here...
There isn't much to tell. I was part of NOM many years ago. I rejoined as Self Proclaimed Greatness back in 2008 when Texas took 400 of our kids. I bitched a lot, made friends, participated here and there. Sometimes I engage in the polygamy discussions, but I think I make people uncomfortable. Sometimes that "what the hell do you know" tone bleeds through, so I mostly avoid them.

I've been living outside of Philadelphia, PA for the past 22 years. I love my Mormon family, but we don't talk much. I'm one of those rare monkeys that believe that we are both naked monkeys and divine beings. It's made for awkward silences, but firm hugs. One NOM member, alas, claims to know my family and I'm dying to know who. Another NOM is a Facebook friend, but other than that, I keep a low profile. You guys are some of my closest friends and most of you can't stand me. Very often I get that, "this is my last comment on the matter." I don't share much about my family as UT is a very small state, socially speaking. Half of Southern Utah could identify me by my arrogance and number of moms.

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alas
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by alas » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:35 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:54 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:11 pm
SaidNobody wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:16 am
I remember going here when I was about 15. One of my mothers showed me a grave that was dated much later, I think in 1890s, that she claimed was the real gravestone for John D Lee. I don't remember all the details, but Brigham Young supposedly helped fake the execution.
One of your mothers? Is there a background story I missed SN? Were you raised in a polygamous family? Truly interested here...
There isn't much to tell. I was part of NOM many years ago. I rejoined as Self Proclaimed Greatness back in 2008 when Texas took 400 of our kids. I bitched a lot, made friends, participated here and there. Sometimes I engage in the polygamy discussions, but I think I make people uncomfortable. Sometimes that "what the hell do you know" tone bleeds through, so I mostly avoid them.

I've been living outside of Philadelphia, PA for the past 22 years. I love my Mormon family, but we don't talk much. I'm one of those rare monkeys that believe that we are both naked monkeys and divine beings. It's made for awkward silences, but firm hugs. One NOM member, alas, claims to know my family and I'm dying to know who. Another NOM is a Facebook friend, but other than that, I keep a low profile. You guys are some of my closest friends and most of you can't stand me. Very often I get that, "this is my last comment on the matter." I don't share much about my family as UT is a very small state, socially speaking. Half of Southern Utah could identify me by my arrogance and number of moms.
I don’t “know” anyone as in “on going relationship.” Unless you want to count my SIL’s next door neighbor, in LaVerkin, who is an expolygamist. But I have talked to a few people and met several. Even been in the homes of two when we were looking at buying a house. (One clearly a Warren Jeff’s follower, the other clearly not) Mostly here they belong to Warren’s followers. Once you told me your father’s name and how he split off Warren’s group. After that, while I still remembered your father’s name, in one of those unusual conversations, a woman said she belonged to your dad’s group. I didn’t dare ask if she knew you, (I assume you have his last name?) so I just said I had a friend who “moved away” and let it go. She didn’t ask names and I didn’t offer, because I didn’t know if they disowned you or what. Usually, I would have expected her to ask, but she didn’t which I took as a clue to let it go. I generally try not to ask questions because the women get scared. I just am friendly and once in a while can strike up a conversation. So, every once in a while I still notice women dressed like she was, which is different than the uniform of Warren’s followers and wonder what group they belong to. There is one that works at my doctor’s office who is not a “Warrenite”, but I have never dared ask questions. If people volunteer information fine, but just the fact that I am friendly makes some of them nervous.

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SaidNobody
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by SaidNobody » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:25 am

alas wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:35 pm
I don’t “know” anyone as in “on going relationship.
That is too bad. If you want an introduction, some of them are pretty cool. Most of my sisters are in education or social work. They are a little more arrogant than me, but still nice people.

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deacon blues
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by deacon blues » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:25 am

I'm stunned. :o It sounds like some of John d. Lee's descendants want to tell the word he wasn't such a bad guy after all, right? :? WTH? :?
My first thought is to compare Lee to Hitler, but that isn't quite fair. He was partially a victim of his culture, and other's were just as culpable. But still- WTH? :shock:
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Corsair
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by Corsair » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:02 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:25 am
I'm stunned. :o It sounds like some of John d. Lee's descendants want to tell the word he wasn't such a bad guy after all, right? :? WTH? :?
My first thought is to compare Lee to Hitler, but that isn't quite fair. He was partially a victim of his culture, and other's were just as culpable. But still- WTH? :shock:
I have an in-law who is a descendant of Lee. He's a strong LDS believer, but wants nothing to do with any memorial for his infamous ancestor. However, he assured me that there are a lot of living descendants of John D. Lee that are still quite salty about how he took the fall for the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

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SaidNobody
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by SaidNobody » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:10 am

Corsair wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:02 pm
deacon blues wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:25 am
I'm stunned. :o It sounds like some of John d. Lee's descendants want to tell the word he wasn't such a bad guy after all, right? :? WTH? :?
My first thought is to compare Lee to Hitler, but that isn't quite fair. He was partially a victim of his culture, and other's were just as culpable. But still- WTH? :shock:
I have an in-law who is a descendant of Lee. He's a strong LDS believer, but wants nothing to do with any memorial for his infamous ancestor. However, he assured me that there are a lot of living descendants of John D. Lee that are still quite salty about how he took the fall for the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
As in they are angry? Don't believe John D. Lee was responsible?

Or they think he was justified?

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Corsair
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by Corsair » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:33 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:10 am
Corsair wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:02 pm
deacon blues wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:25 am
I'm stunned. :o It sounds like some of John d. Lee's descendants want to tell the word he wasn't such a bad guy after all, right? :? WTH? :?
My first thought is to compare Lee to Hitler, but that isn't quite fair. He was partially a victim of his culture, and other's were just as culpable. But still- WTH? :shock:
I have an in-law who is a descendant of Lee. He's a strong LDS believer, but wants nothing to do with any memorial for his infamous ancestor. However, he assured me that there are a lot of living descendants of John D. Lee that are still quite salty about how he took the fall for the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
As in they are angry? Don't believe John D. Lee was responsible?

Or they think he was justified?
I do not try to engage them on this topic. Their argument is that it was unfair for John D. Lee to take all the blame when there were a lot more people involved. And I suspect that many of them still believe the old stories about it being the fault of the natives.

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SaidNobody
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by SaidNobody » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:07 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:33 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:10 am
Corsair wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:02 pm


I have an in-law who is a descendant of Lee. He's a strong LDS believer, but wants nothing to do with any memorial for his infamous ancestor. However, he assured me that there are a lot of living descendants of John D. Lee that are still quite salty about how he took the fall for the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
As in they are angry? Don't believe John D. Lee was responsible?

Or they think he was justified?
I do not try to engage them on this topic. Their argument is that it was unfair for John D. Lee to take all the blame when there were a lot more people involved. And I suspect that many of them still believe the old stories about it being the fault of the natives.
That was my general take. They were felt wronged but weren't exactly forthcoming in what they thought really happened. Though the general consensus around my house was, "nobody knows," there is a passionate (conspiratorial) view that Porter Rockwell did it. But because he was JS's personal bodyguard, BY made a special effort to cover it up.

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moksha
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by moksha » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:53 am

When Brigham Young finally visited the site of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, he ordered his men to tear down the grave cairn built by the US Soldiers to commemorate the 120 slain travelers. Brigham recited the bible verse "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord." He then added, "And I have taken some" at least that was more or less what was recorded by Wilford Woodruff. The cross was torn down and the stones scattered across the valley. The army later rebuilt the cairn but it was again desecrated by angry Saints.

Various monuments to the slain have since been erected at the site over the years. From the Wikipedia:
On September 9, 2017, the skull of a child was interred in a vault at the base of the cairn (next to the other remains buried in 1999).[32] The skull, which belonged to a child killed by a gunshot to the back of the head, was gathered by Major Carleton's soldiers during the burial of victims in May 1859. The skull was eventually forwarded to the Army Medical Museum (today known as the National Museum of Health and Medicine) in 1864, where it remained until 2017.[33] Additionally, in 2017, granite memorial markers containing the names of all known victims were placed around the interior perimeter of the fence which surrounds the 1999 monument.[34]
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Red Ryder
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Re: LDS History in Arizona

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:31 pm

I read that the 2 grave sites were found by Everette Bassett and weren’t on the property the church bought.
Using the Army records, Bassett was able to locate the California/Old Spanish Trail, which led him to a piece of private property that is not owned by the LDS Church. Bassett said the massacre site is correct but after comparing the historic records to the LDS-owned property, he realized the two alleged burial locations were marked in the wrong places.
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