End the Patriarchy

Chat about a topic supported by books, TED Talks, podcasts, personal experience, philosophies of mankind mingled with humor (shout out to IOT), and maybe we’ll even do a google hangout or conference call once a month.
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SaidNobody
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End the Patriarchy

Post by SaidNobody » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:08 pm

I was reading through the Intros and stumbled upon a term that made me smile. For privacy, I will not mention the name, but it rhymed with "miver rorgan, "End the Patriarchy."

I would love some discussion about this.
I'm writing a book. It's sort of a scifi/alternate reality/romance/savior story. My savior, a young lady raised by various dubious cult members got back to England to find her history degree, only be to transported by an ancient portal in the basement of an old pub and finds herself in 1647, but alternate reality. This is "current time, her time, but in a different reality, back in 1647."

She is a woman, she is strong, (won't get into that) and she discovers that the King and Church are plotting to kill the witches that oppose the sell of sugar to the people. The witches were in charge of nutrition and healing, and they forbid the use of sugar, so the church and state paired up to destroy them. There were killings, and burnings, and laws against healing, etc.

My savior, Liz, quickly realizes that she cannot stand by while this holocaust happens. She decides to save the witches. So she becomes a witch.

She doesn't realize it, but there is a bigger plan and this chance to redeem the witches is like a Jesus event, where the witches are not killed and a world exists where they remain in power. So, there is that. What would the world be like if women were never "dethroned" from their positions are teachers, healers, nutritionists?

Anyway, in my story, Liz approaches the Abbots of a local abby. She discovers he is of old order, the Benedictines, the order of the Father. Father is an idea that the founder of the order began to preach in the 3rd Century. Men have always been able to "father" children, but being a "father" is a completely different idea. It takes devotion and patience, a sense of purpose and protection, etc, etc, etc. Because of the "father" and his teaching, thousands of men began to practice the idea of a father. That is why to this day priests are called Father. But they would tend villages, and families that needed help, and would in all wise try to serve the people. England, somehow, ended up with on of the strong cultures on earth. Not the biggest, (not all at once) but the idea of the father has spawned many a good deed. It was in a sense, what created chivalry, where the man devotes himself to the woman and her safety, so that she might feel safe to start a family.

Without the "father" (a spiritual idea intentionally practiced) we would still be in the dark ages, in my humble opinion.

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SaidNobody
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Re: End the Patriarchy

Post by SaidNobody » Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:31 pm

Come on.

Ending the patriarchy is the topic of choice for probably 53.6% of American women.

I really would like to understand this.

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Corsair
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Re: End the Patriarchy

Post by Corsair » Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:42 am

Based on your story idea I think what you will end up with is Frank Herbert's "Dune" universe several thousand years early. If the Witches have actual super powers then you will get the Bene Gesserit sisterhood that controls things behind the scenes in ways that kings and emperors have to carefully tread around. And it's not like men would take this sitting down. They would set up their own all male Guild with whatever super powered talents your universe grants them. One plot point would be finding the superhuman that could go down both paths.

This is not an attempt to justify or explain Patriarchy, but the Patriarchy will adapt. As long as foolish teenage girls and arrogant teenage boys are attracted to each other, both sides will adapt. And, as long as the average woman cannot beat the average man in an arm wrestling match then I still suspect that the Patriarchy will come out on top even if women consistently win in the arena of emotional combat.

If the Witches are simply put in charge of medical care without superpowers, then modern medicine and germ theory starts up a lot earlier and Florence Nightingale becomes much more prominent and possibly into seats of political power. That would be an interesting story in it's own right.

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SaidNobody
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Re: End the Patriarchy

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:09 pm

Corsair wrote:
Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:42 am


This is not an attempt to justify or explain Patriarchy, but the Patriarchy will adapt.
In spite of your lack of attempt to justify, your comment does justify it. The patriarchy will adapt and survive. Why? Because it works best for several situations. Like the power of evolution, functional systems tend to float to the top. Matriarchy can be a great power too.

But I've seen dozens of interviews where bright and educated women talked of the necessary destruction of the "patriarchy."

I've been reading the Federalist Papers and was genuinely surprised to recognize what I would call "5th-dimensional thinking." To me, 5th-dimensional thinking is the ability to read energy and predict the behavior of a type of people from an event that evolves to stage to stage based on natural pressures like fear and competition. These guys were deep in the spirit of the patriarchy, so to speak, but I think they were part of bringing the world forward in many ways.

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Re: End the Patriarchy

Post by Corsair » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:24 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:08 pm
I've been reading the Federalist Papers and was genuinely surprised to recognize what I would call "5th-dimensional thinking." To me, 5th-dimensional thinking is the ability to read energy and predict the behavior of a type of people from an event that evolves to stage to stage based on natural pressures like fear and competition. These guys were deep in the spirit of the patriarchy, so to speak, but I think they were part of bringing the world forward in many ways.
I think you are right with this idea. The writers of the Federalist Papers were big fans of the Roman empire, one of the most patriarchal institutions to ever exist, and certainly one of the most successful over long periods of time. I won't pretend that the Roman empire was the good guy for much of the time, nor would I necessarily want to have existed as the average Roman citizen. But Rome was successful and stable under crises that toppled many of their peers like the Etruscans and Carthaginians. The American founders wanted some of that resilience in the new country they were founding and I can't blame them for building a society based on what appeared to work.

I'm also not automatically decrying women leaders, particularly in the modern era. The prime minister of New Zealand attended LDS youth activities before she headed off in another philosophical direction. Jacinda Ardern had a baby while she was prime minister which seems like a notable achievement in feminist circles. Her government is fairly Lefty.

Has the Patriarchy been sufficiently smashed in New Zealand? And will this produce a civilization that will continue for hundreds of years like Rome? We are running this experiment in real time. It's no conspiracy theory to think that the United States will have it's own woman as head of the executive branch sometime in the next few years.

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Re: End the Patriarchy

Post by SaidNobody » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:53 pm

I might not qualify as a patriarch. Like, I know electronic engineering but I'm not a licensed or degreed engineer.

The power of "father" doesn't have to be diminish the power of mother. Patriarchy is a magic, so to speak. Matriarchy has a power and a magic of its own. I grew up in a house that actually had strong fields of both patriarchy and matriarchy. They were not exclusive to each other.

I don't think there is any powerful idea that cannot be corrupted and abused If not tamed or regulated by outside forces. The idea of kung fu is a powerful and useful idea, but can be deadly if it isn't counter by other forces. Without someone or something to hold these ideas in some form of accountability, they could be devastating.

Likewise with patriarchy and matriarchy. I think because people don't want to associate the idea of matriarchy to patriarchy they tend to call it feminism. I think feminism is actually a more corrupt version of matriarchy. I don't think it produces sustainable societies as well as matriarchy.

You mentioned the Netherlands. I don't know that much about feminism there. I have read many accounts coming out of Switzerland and Sweden that are basically cries for help. The feminists have taken over those lands and they are less than kind to anyone who doesn't submit to their way of doing things. And their systems of self justification will probably destroy the country.

What I found interesting about patriarchy here in America, was that almost as soon as it was practical, it not only allowed, it asked for women to come forward to vote and become full citizens. Meaning that they could own property, sign contracts, and vote and run for office.

The way modern women paint it is as if they had to fight for these rights. Yes they marched and did things, but the men were right beside them on many counts and helping them.

The reason, many of these rights were withheld from women before this time, was that justice was often settled in a knife fight or a duel in the morning. Negotiations often settled with the fist fight. The ownership of land often defended by someone's right or ability to kill trespassers.

As those things subsided due to modern technology, and anyone could own a gun, or hire a gun, many of the traditional differences between men and women were placed aside. I don't think the patriarchy actually wants to hold women down. It's more of a wanting to protect and give an environment where they can thrive.

Where I see stable families, and self-discipline children, I often see traditional standards that represent a lot of what patriarchy was about. It doesn't mean that the women don't have all the same rights, but much of the structure followed the old ways. I'm not saying it has to be this way. Merely that when I see stable families it usually is this way.

Patriarchy promotes loyalty between the parties. Meaning that the man is loyal to the woman and that the woman be loyal to the man. With feminism, this seems less important. If she wants to go out and have a weekend bendor with a couple of guys, that's her right. But such people usually don't provide a stable family environment, at least I don't think so.

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