Trump & Church

Chat about a topic supported by books, TED Talks, podcasts, personal experience, philosophies of mankind mingled with humor (shout out to IOT), and maybe we’ll even do a google hangout or conference call once a month.
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Mackman
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Trump & Church

Post by Mackman » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:37 pm

I've been watching the Jan 6th committee lately and was thinking isn't it interesting that the same people who bury their head in the sand when told the truth about the church are the very same people that still support Trump today including my TBM wife. It's always its fake news or it's a lie or a conspiracy of the deep state etc etc etc when will people ever listen to the facts especially about the so called church that really is a real estate agency. Not trying to make a political discussion here as I am now a centrist but it's an interesting comparison I think , I would love to hear what others have to say on the subject.

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moksha
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by moksha » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:55 pm

I was impressed with the values of Arizona Speaker Rusty Bowers, who said no to the election lies of Trump and his lawyers.

For the most part, many Mormons hold the same views as LDS President Ezra Taft Benson when it comes to politics (except Benson may have been repelled by Trump, while most current Mormons endorse Trump). There could well be riots in the streets of Provo and Gunnison if Trump is indicted by a grand jury.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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deacon blues
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by deacon blues » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:27 pm

I agree. Rusty Bowers seems like he is one of the good ones. I had to smile at one of the dialogues:
Bowers: "Do you have their names?"
Giuliani: "Yes."
Bowers: "Will you give them to me?"
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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moksha
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by moksha » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:34 pm

Watching the latest news analysis on the early dawn raid of Jeffery Clark's house. Apparently, the Justice Department has commenced a criminal investigation into the Trump White House.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Wonderment
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by Wonderment » Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:27 am

I was impressed with Rusty Bowers until he said that if Trump were running against Biden again, he would vote for Trump. Even after Trump thoroughly bullied him and threatened him, Bowers will still vote for Trump again. Until Bowers said that, I thought he was very honorable. -- Wndr.

hmb
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by hmb » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:02 am

Wonderment wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:27 am
I was impressed with Rusty Bowers until he said that if Trump were running against Biden again, he would vote for Trump. Even after Trump thoroughly bullied him and threatened him, Bowers will still vote for Trump again. Until Bowers said that, I thought he was very honorable. -- Wndr.
This did not surprise me. My parents do NOT like Trump. Not at all. But they will vote republican regardless. To them, the lesser of the two evils is Trump before a democrat. As evil as Trump is, and they know he's evil, they believe democrats are worse. I would have been more surprised if Rusty said he would not vote for Trump.

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Hagoth
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:46 pm

hmb wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:02 am
As evil as Trump is, and they know he's evil, they believe democrats are worse.
Sure, democrats may respect the rule of law, but does that excuse the fact that they eat babies? I know because some guy on the internet said so. Which would you prefer, a white nationalist dictatorship or a bunch of baby brain suckers?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

hmb
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by hmb » Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:57 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:46 pm
hmb wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:02 am
As evil as Trump is, and they know he's evil, they believe democrats are worse.
Sure, democrats may respect the rule of law, but does that excuse the fact that they eat babies? I know because some guy on the internet said so. Which would you prefer, a white nationalist dictatorship or a bunch of baby brain suckers?
If democrats like to feast on babies (yum?), why oh why do they oppose overturning Roe?? It's a conundrum.

Wonderment
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by Wonderment » Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:03 pm

Hagoth wrote,
Sure, democrats may respect the rule of law, but does that excuse the fact that they eat babies? I know because some guy on the internet said so. Which would you prefer, a white nationalist dictatorship or a bunch of baby brain suckers?
Nancy Pelosi is coming for our children ! :shock: Someone on the Facebook page our ward's Relief Society set up to share cute baby photos and pregnancy pics said so ! This sister's husband received a revelation about it. So I have no choice but to vote for whatever insurrection supporter runs for office. :roll:

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deacon blues
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by deacon blues » Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:57 pm

For many, Trump and the Church are quintessential, textbook Idols.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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moksha
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by moksha » Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:39 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:46 pm
Which would you prefer, a white nationalist dictatorship or a bunch of baby brain suckers?
Would the leader have the Schutzstaffel lightning bolts tattooed on his forehead?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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stealthbishop
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:51 am

My BYU American Heritage professor (Frank Fox) from back in the day who developed the class was opposed to Trump even before January 6th and he was a life long conservative Republican. He told the story of a neighbor in Provo who believed the end was coming (of course) and that Donald Trump would take Jesus BY THE RIGHT HAND and usher in the Second Coming! Fox was completely shocked at how so many people had been hoodwinked and fooled probably because of their hatred of Democrats. It was astounding!
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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Hagoth
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:35 am

stealthbishop wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:51 am
... Donald Trump would take Jesus BY THE RIGHT HAND...
...and draw back a stump.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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SaidNobody
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by SaidNobody » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:00 pm

Wonderment wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:27 am
I was impressed with Rusty Bowers until he said that if Trump were running against Biden again, he would vote for Trump. Even after Trump thoroughly bullied him and threatened him, Bowers will still vote for Trump again. Until Bowers said that, I thought he was very honorable. -- Wndr.
It's seems like your respect for others is an easy come, easy go sort of thing.

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FreeFallin
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by FreeFallin » Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:58 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:00 pm
Wonderment wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:27 am
I was impressed with Rusty Bowers until he said that if Trump were running against Biden again, he would vote for Trump. Even after Trump thoroughly bullied him and threatened him, Bowers will still vote for Trump again. Until Bowers said that, I thought he was very honorable. -- Wndr.
It's seems like your respect for others is an easy come, easy go sort of thing.
When people show you they don't deserve your respect, it is best to withdraw it. Otherwise you end up stuck in abusive relationships. Speaking from experience.

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1smartdodog
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by 1smartdodog » Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:12 pm

Trump should probably go to jail but I dispute that Mormons as a whole support him. That seems to be the mantra of those who dislike the church to put the majority of believers in Utah into the Trump camp. Some do but there are many more liberal members I think who dislike him.


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“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
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jfro18
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by jfro18 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:41 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:12 pm
Trump should probably go to jail but I dispute that Mormons as a whole support him. That seems to be the mantra of those who dislike the church to put the majority of believers in Utah into the Trump camp. Some do but there are many more liberal members I think who dislike him.
From a polling perspective I believe the only religious group that supported Trump at a higher level was evangelicals.

That being said, polls are tricky for Mormons because they are so insignificant in numbers, but Trump clearly had overwhelming support from the LDS church overall.

I know a lot of 'liberal' Mormons who hate him, but I'd bet good money they are in a very small minority within church members.

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Hagoth
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:18 am

jfro18 wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:41 pm
I know a lot of 'liberal' Mormons who hate him, but I'd bet good money they are in a very small minority within church members.
I also know less liberal Mormons who hate him but voted for him anyway, because voting for a Democrat is almost the same as voting for Satan.
jfro18 wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:41 pm
From a polling perspective I believe the only religious group that supported Trump at a higher level was evangelicals.
Add to that the pivot the Supreme Court has taken and you realize we are living in a country that appears to be controlled by a special interest group. Trump's SCOTUS appointees testified that they would not overturn Roe V. Wade. They lied. The highest court is not trustworthy, and does not represent the people anymore; it represents that special interest group. The softening of gerrymandering restrictions will only make things worse. Take your vitamin pills, and maybe clear a spot on our front lawn for a burning cross.

Or a burning Moroni. Mormons bow their political heads and say "yes" to Evangelicals because they want so badly to be part of the club. How to explain to them that they never will be in the club and that they will be the next group who needs to clear a spot on the lawn as soon as they are no longer considered useful in the eyes of their beloved Evangelicals, then it's right back to being hated as a cult, but by people who now have more political and media power.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

hmb
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by hmb » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:26 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:18 am
jfro18 wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:41 pm
I know a lot of 'liberal' Mormons who hate him, but I'd bet good money they are in a very small minority within church members.
I also know less liberal Mormons who hate him but voted for him anyway, because voting for a Democrat is almost the same as voting for Satan.
This is some of my family. Vote republican even if they believe their candidate is an evil, vile individual. "Joe Biden is a pretty standup guy, but I could never vote for a democrat. I hold my nose and vote for Trump. That's how the spirit guides." :roll:

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SaidNobody
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Re: Trump & Church

Post by SaidNobody » Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:19 am

FreeFallin wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:58 am
SaidNobody wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:00 pm
Wonderment wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:27 am
I was impressed with Rusty Bowers until he said that if Trump were running against Biden again, he would vote for Trump. Even after Trump thoroughly bullied him and threatened him, Bowers will still vote for Trump again. Until Bowers said that, I thought he was very honorable. -- Wndr.
It's seems like your respect for others is an easy come, easy go sort of thing.
When people show you they don't deserve your respect, it is best to withdraw it. Otherwise you end up stuck in abusive relationships. Speaking from experience.
Thank you for explaining. It doesn't change anything but it makes more sense.

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