Trump & Church

[moksha]

My point above was that while my LDS family can't stand Trump and his behavior, they would vote for him if he's the republican nominee, even if found guilty of his alleged crimes. Not because they are MAGA or believe Trump is right, but because they can't vote anything but Republican. And why is that? Because that's what the only true church would choose.

As Joseph Smith once was, Trump may become. As Trump is now, a future President of the LDS Church may become. It is the golden circle of fraud.

[Mayan_Elephant]

My point above was that while my LDS family can't stand Trump and his behavior, they would vote for him if he's the republican nominee, even if found guilty of his alleged crimes. Not because they are MAGA or believe Trump is right, but because they can't vote anything but Republican. And why is that? Because that's what the only true church would choose.

As Joseph Smith once was, Trump may become. As Trump is now, a future President of the LDS Church may become. It is the golden circle of fraud.

Many exmormons continue to view the world in black/white, good/bad and propheted/prophetless.

[Hagoth]

Did Trump opportunistically take the reins? OH YES!!!!

Yes that's a great description of what he did. With very serious consequences.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Did Trump opportunistically take the reins? OH YES!!!!

Yes that's a great description of what he did. With very serious consequences.

Yep. And many of those consequences were the result of rejecting outrageous conditions. The first large rejection was the deplorables label. That may have been trivial to many folks, but it set the tone and posture for many more rejections.

[moksha]

The Heritage Foundation's Project 2025 is a game plan to convert America to a fascist autocracy.

[Hagoth]

Yep. And many of those consequences were the result of rejecting outrageous conditions. The first large rejection was the deplorables label.

Yeah, that was a really, really idiotic thing for Hillary to say. But it was also pretty stupid that everyone who votes Republican distorted it into a condemnation of everybody who didn't vote for her. But they happily lapped it up as victimization. Meanwhile Trump's name calling is just fine and cheer-worthy. Also, I think it's time for people to stop defending Trump by reaching all the way back to Hillary to find things to bitch about.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Yep. And many of those consequences were the result of rejecting outrageous conditions. The first large rejection was the deplorables label.

Yeah, that was a really, really idiotic thing for Hillary to say. But it was also pretty stupid that everyone who votes Republican distorted it into a condemnation of everybody who didn't vote for her. But they happily lapped it up as victimization. Meanwhile Trump's name calling is just fine and cheer-worthy. Also, I think it's time for people to stop defending Trump by reaching all the way back to Hillary to find things to bitch about.

Indeed. It was dumb. For one, it was not true. For two, it was triggering as hell and it was going to get a reaction - which it did. And finally, saying it was dumb but thinking it was worse, and everyone already knew she thought it.

I hope you are not addressing me or my comments when you suggest people stop defending Trump by reaching all the way back to Hillary. I am not defending Trump. I agree with Sam Harris - Trump is an asshole. I also think he is a dick. He is aggressive as hell and he plays the victim card. I was addressing your comments and explaining how we got here. I was making a point that he has not done more than anyone else to turn Americans against each other. More than some folks, yes. But not the most. His popularity was the symptom of people having already been turned against each other. And that turning continued in force while he was in office. It continues today. Dorsey, Murdoch, and Zuckerberg make Trump look like a rookie when it comes to turning people against each other.

Trump has another advantage working for him now. He is not a democrat and he is not blowing smoke up the GOP's ass. He is avoiding debates and not playing along with the 5 candidates who are playing GOP games to win GOP/uniparty prizes. The more the GOP divides people - the more Trump gains. The more the democrats divide the nation - the more voters will be driven to Trump. Trump is playing off the division again.

I will say it again. I have no skin in this game. I am not a registered voter and do not foresee that changing in my lifetime. I do not think we will ever have elections that meet my standards. I am not defending Trump.

[Dirty Bird]

Hagoth

Maybe so, but I hear a lot of mythology coming from DB, and I'm trying to focus on real people and situations, not on party lines or false labels. The reason I dislike Trump so much is not that he's Republican or Conservative (because he really isn't really either of those things, if you take his whole history into account), it's because he is so devisive and has done more than anyone in my memory to turn Americans against each other.

I was raised with the notion that my spirit brother Lucifer, sometimes known as Satan, was a rebel and a cruel spirit who would trick me into believing things in order to get me to do sins. I was always afraid that I might be doing something that Satan had tricked me into doing, thus the thought that he was observing everything I did as a child tormented me. That's how I lived into my forties. I was shocked to learn that I had spent more than 40 years living in constant terror of a spirit man I had never met when I realized that I had been letting the brethren utilize this persona of Satan to dictate how I behaved on a daily basis.

I'm sorry to tell you, but you have been duped into thinking that Trump is a contemporary Satan, just as I was duped by the brethren into thinking my brother Satan was the most evil spirit in the universe. The socialists who infiltrated the Democratic party have transformed Trump into a living, breathing Satan. Now look, look, look, look, look! I've had enough heated discussions with my Mormon friends to know that no matter what I tell them—Satan and his ability to influence them is real. The socialist have duped the Democrats into believing Trump is Satan. I know this to be true because I am aware of how the media has tricked half the nation into thinking he is the Antichrist.

Hagoth, Trump would never have been elected because he would not have run for president in the first place if the socialist had never entered the Democratic party.

Hagoth, Trump is not a Republican, nor is he a conservative; rather, he is a pragmatic, realist, and capitalist who leans liberal on social issues while being somewhat fiscally conservative. Trump, a fervent realist, saw how the socialists had infiltrated the Democratic Party and, like many other Americans, concluded that Republicans were too cowardly to oppose the socialists. Therefore, he decided to run as a Republican for President in order to bring the party together, stop the socialist agenda, and release the Democrats from the cancer they were allowing to spread within their own party.

You see, people like me don't vote for Trump because he's a good man or moral; rather, we vote for him because we recognize that the socialist movement has infiltrated the Democratic Party, and we need someone who can be brazen, cocky, and an asshole when necessary because Republicans like Mitt Romney will give in to the socialist movement's demands.

To launch their campaign in the United States, the socialists had the option of joining either the Republican or Democratic parties. The strategy of deception might have been different if they had chose the Republican Party, but the end goal—the complete eradication of Western civilization—would still have been the same. The Democratic Party is afflicted with a malignancy known as socialism. Socialism must spread to every inch of the host in order to endure. That is what Trump is aware of! Simply put, you haven't arrived to that conclusion yet. The brethern are still whispering in your ear and you're hearing them loud and clear.

[moksha]

To launch their campaign in the United States, the socialists had the option of joining either the Republican or Democratic parties.

The Fascists viewed the socialists as an enemy. I suppose they were right in that their ultimate goals were opposites. Right now, the Republicans have made a major leap into fascism.

[Mayan_Elephant]

To launch their campaign in the United States, the socialists had the option of joining either the Republican or Democratic parties.

The Fascists viewed the socialists as an enemy. I suppose they were right in that their ultimate goals were opposites. Right now, the Republicans have made a major leap into fascism.

This is false.

Consider not making a giant leap into falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and snark.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Hagoth, Trump would never have been elected because he would not have run for president in the first place if the socialist had never entered the Democratic party.

Hagoth, Trump is not a Republican, nor is he a conservative; rather, he is a pragmatic, realist, and capitalist who leans liberal on social issues while being somewhat fiscally conservative. Trump, a fervent realist, saw how the socialists had infiltrated the Democratic Party and, like many other Americans, concluded that Republicans were too cowardly to oppose the socialists. Therefore, he decided to run as a Republican for President in order to bring the party together, stop the socialist agenda, and release the Democrats from the cancer they were allowing to spread within their own party.

This is close. This is damn close. This the closest to what happened that I have seen here.

Trump would not have run if the GOP had not abandoned Americans. Trump saw an opportunity. He saw the left, right, democrats, republicans, house, senate, GOP candidates, the DNC, the media, and the war machine shitting on Americans. He knew if he did not shit on America and Americans, people would vote for him. I think he surprised himself when he won.

You see, people like me don't vote for Trump because he's a good man or moral;

That is rather blunt. But yes. Assholes make great politicians. If they weren't assholes, they would get trampled and submit to other assholes.

[dogbite]

Socialism supported by Republicans:

Police
Military
CIA
FBI
DEA
ATF
ICE
Post military medical care
Fire fighting
Public schools
Medicare (they won't get rid of it)
Social security (they won't get rid of it)
Federal highways
Public utilities
Postal service
Waste disposal
Prisons
Snow plowing
Flood insurance
FEMA
Farm subsidies

Debatable support:
Unemployment
National parks
Public transit

[Mayan_Elephant]

Socialism supported by Republicans:

Police
Military
CIA
FBI
DEA
ATF
ICE
Post military medical care
Fire fighting
Public schools
Medicare (they won't get rid of it)
Social security (they won't get rid of it)
Federal highways
Public utilities
Postal service
Waste disposal
Prisons
Snow plowing
Flood insurance
FEMA
Farm subsidies

Debatable support:
Unemployment
National parks
Public transit

So, you agree with the Nasty Bird?

[moksha]

The Fascists viewed the socialists as an enemy. I suppose they were right in that their ultimate goals were opposites. Right now, the Republicans have made a major leap into fascism.

This is false.

Consider not making a giant leap into falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and snark.

Consider not denying past and current history.

[Mayan_Elephant]

The Fascists viewed the socialists as an enemy. I suppose they were right in that their ultimate goals were opposites. Right now, the Republicans have made a major leap into fascism.

This is false.

Consider not making a giant leap into falsehoods, conspiracy theories, and snark.

Consider not denying past and current history.

I will do that. Show me, just once, the historical facts that support your conspiracy theory about fascists in the GOP. Thanks little buddy.

[moksha]

Here is but one of many stories if you Google the Republican Party and fascism. This one is nice and succinct.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ty-fascism

The Project 2025 for Trump regaining the White House has boots on the ground US troops to quell any dissent. That is very fascist.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Here is but one of many stories if you Google the Republican Party and fascism. This one is nice and succinct.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ty-fascism

The Project 2025 for Trump regaining the White House has boots on the ground US troops to quell any dissent. That is very fascist.

I will get into this more later. But for now, please answer this simple question:

Is it legal to punch someone in the face, kick them in the ear, elbow them in jaw and then retain them with force and hold their head and neck until they go unconscious?

[Mayan_Elephant]

Here is but one of many stories if you Google the Republican Party and fascism. This one is nice and succinct.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ty-fascism

The Project 2025 for Trump regaining the White House has boots on the ground US troops to quell any dissent. That is very fascist.

I will help you get past the paywall.

How do we describe what Trump wants for America?

“Authoritarianism” isn’t adequate. It is fascism. Fascism stands for a coherent set of ideas different from – and more dangerous than – authoritarianism.

To fight those ideas, it’s necessary to be aware of what they are and how they fit together.

Borrowing from the cultural theorist Umberto Eco, the historians Emilio Gentile and Ian Kershaw, the political scientist Roger Griffin, and the former US secretary of state Madeleine Albright, I offer five elements that distinguish fascism from authoritarianism.

1. The rejection of democracy, the rule of law and equal rights under the law in favor of a strongman who interprets the popular will.

“The election was stolen.” (Trump, 2020)

“I am your justice … I am your retribution.” (Trump, 2023)

Authoritarians believe society needs strong leaders to maintain stability. They vest in a dictator the power to maintain social order through the use of force (armies, police, militia) and bureaucracy.

By contrast, fascists view strong leaders as the means of discovering what society needs. They regard the leader as the embodiment of society, the voice of the people.

2. The galvanizing of popular rage against cultural elites.

“Your enemies” are “media elites”, … “the elites who led us from one financial and foreign policy disaster to another”. (Trump, 2015, 2016)

Authoritarians do not stir people up against establishment elites. They use or co-opt those elites to gain and maintain power.[/i]

By contrast, fascists galvanize public rage at presumed (or imaginary) cultural elites and use mass rage to gain and maintain power. They stir up grievances against those elites for supposedly displacing average people and seek revenge. In doing so, they create mass parties. They often encourage violence.

3. Nationalism based on a dominant “superior” race and historic bloodlines.

“Tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border.” (Trump, 2015)

“Jewish people that vote for a Democrat [show] great disloyalty.” (Trump, 2019)

“Getting critical race theory out of our schools is … a matter of national survival.” (Trump, 2022)

Authoritarians see nationalism as a means of asserting the power of the state. They glorify the state. They want it to dominate other nations.

Authoritarianism seeks to protect or expand its geographic boundaries. It worries about foreign enemies encroaching on its territory.

By contrast, fascism embodies what it considers a “superior” group – based on race, religion and historic bloodlines. Nationalism is a means of asserting that superiority.

Fascists worry about disloyalty and sabotage from groups within the nation that don’t share the same race or bloodlines. These “others” are scapegoated, excluded or expelled, sometimes even killed.

Fascists believe schools and universities must teach values that extol the dominant race, religion and bloodline. Schools should not teach inconvenient truths (such as America’s history of genocide and racism).

4. Extolling brute strength and heroic warriors.

“You’ll never take back our country with weakness, you have to show strength and you have to be strong. (Trump, 6 January 2021)

“I am your warrior.” (Trump, 2023)

The goal of authoritarianism is to gain and maintain state power. For authoritarians, “strength” comes in the form of large armies and munitions.

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By contrast, the ostensible goal of fascism is to strengthen society. Fascism’s method of accomplishing this is to reward those who win economically and physically and to denigrate or exterminate those who lose.

Fascism depends on organized bullying – a form of social Darwinism. For the fascist, war and violence are means of strengthening society by culling the weak and extolling heroic warriors.

5. Disdain of women and fear of non-standard gender identities or sexual orientation.

“When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.” (Trump, 2005)

“You have to treat ’em like shit.” (Trump, 1992)

“I will promote positive education about the nuclear family … rather than erasing the things that make men and women different.” (Trump, 2023)

Authoritarianism imposes hierarchies. Authoritarians seek order.

By contrast, fascism is organized around the particular hierarchy of male dominance. The fascist heroic warrior is male. Women are relegated to subservient roles.

In fascism, anything that challenges the traditional heroic male roles of protector, provider and controller of the family is considered a threat to the social order.

Fascism seeks to eliminate homosexual, transgender and queer people because they are thought to challenge or weaken the heroic male warrior.

These five elements of fascism reinforce each other:

Rejection of democracy in favor of a strongman depends on galvanizing popular rage.

Popular rage draws on a nationalism based on a supposed superior race or ethnicity.

That superior race or ethnicity is justified by social Darwinist strength and violence, as exemplified by heroic warriors.

Strength, violence and the heroic warrior are centered on male power.

These five elements find exact expression in Donald Trump and the white Christian nationalist movement he is encouraging. This is also the direction that most of the Republican party is now heading.

They are not the elements of authoritarianism. They are the essential elements of fascism.

America’s mainstream media is by now comfortable talking and writing about Trump’s authoritarianism. In describing what he is seeking to impose on America, the media should be using the term fascism.

Robert Reich, a former US secretary of labor, is professor of public policy at the University of California, Berkeley, and the author of Saving Capitalism: For the Many, Not the Few and The Common Good. His new book, The System: Who Rigged It, How We Fix It, is out now. He is a Guardian US columnist. His newsletter is at robertreich.substack.com

I asked for facts. What I got was what google said that the guardian said was Robert Reich's unsubstantiated opinion. This was followed by a conspiracy theory that Moksha has about what Trump will do in 2025.

While this entire article is nothing more than a ranting advertisement for Reich's book, it is worth putting it in the context of this conversation. Reich knows that the liberal democratic party is true, he knows that the "elites" that run the democratic party are the people that are divinely selected to do what is best for the party and the people that do not know what is best for them. Reich knows that there is an evil force trying to convince people to not be part of the right organization led by the right leaders. Reich knows that his form of authoritarianism seeks the right form of order and that people can choose that form of authoritarianism to be saved from the bad guys.

In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

If any of you would also like to share your testimony, you may come here to the pulpit or one of the deacons can bring a microphone to you.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Borrowing from the cultural theorist Umberto Eco, the historians Emilio Gentile and Ian Kershaw, the political scientist Roger Griffin, and the former US secretary of state Madeleine Albright, I offer five elements that distinguish fascism from authoritarianism.

1. The rejection of democracy, the rule of law and equal rights under the law in favor of a strongman who interprets the popular will.

“The election was stolen.” (Trump, 2020)

“I am your justice … I am your retribution.” (Trump, 2023)

Authoritarians believe society needs strong leaders to maintain stability. They vest in a dictator the power to maintain social order through the use of force (armies, police, militia) and bureaucracy.

By contrast, fascists view strong leaders as the means of discovering what society needs. They regard the leader as the embodiment of society, the voice of the people.

Did Eco, Gentile, Kershaw, Griffin, and Albright say this? Show me that any or all of them said this. I want the evidence that any or all of them said this. As mormons we were fed lies about what was said without knowing what was actually said, until it was too late. As mormons, we were fed lies about our history, without knowing the actual history, until it was was too late. As mormons, we were told how to interpret feelings as facts. We were told to say that we know something to be true, when we did not actually know the veracity of the thing.

There is absolutely not a goddamn thing wrong with interpreting the popular will of the people. Nothing. In fact, that is the foundation of a democracy. Further, having a representative of the people interpret that will and decide for the people is the foundation of a republic. Reich seems confused by the actual history of our country and the actual laws. All republics are democracies but not all democracies are republics. He seems hell bent on making sure that neither exists in the USA and that the representation of the people, directly or indirectly, is perceived as a threat.

Without the will of the people, there is no democracy. Without democracy, there is no republic. Reich, a well known and outspoken proponent of authoritarianism, where elites who know what is best for the plebs, is at least consistent. He is basically arguing that the people are not entitled to a strong proponent of their will and that if they have that - it is a fascist threat to the Quorum that wants the people to STFU.

Reich and his owners not getting their way is not evidence that the will of the people is a rejection of democracy. If the will of the people is to not enter another multi-generation war that Biden, Reich and McConnell want - that is not a rejection of democracy. If it takes a strong leader to voice the people's opinion on not wanting more war, that is not a rejection of democracy.

Monarchy can have democratic elements. Oligarchy can have democratic elements. Reich is f****** with you, Moksha. He wants you to let his team be in charge of the so-called democracy while he obliterates the people's voice and convinces you that the people do not deserve a voice. Somebody is paying attention, and is willing to stand up for the people's voice - even if it is wrong - to preserve the republic, by which we stand. Reich is correct about one thing - the people and a republic are threats to his authority and to his buddies.