Hey, didn't you notice the Antichrist is here?

[Hagoth]

Note: the following is for discussion only. I do not believe in Satan or the Antichrist.

I find it interesting that whenever there's a Democratic president, Evangelical groups start falling all over themselves finding parallels with the Antichrist. It struck me that Donald Trump's behavior fits the Antichrist mold far better than any politician before him, but I have never heard that case made in his case. Because he's Republican, I presume.

I looked around and found this list of qualities of the Antichrist from a non-Republican-oriented website:

#1. The Antichrist has the mouth of a lion – Revelation 13:2

Trump fulfills this first description of the Antichrist to such an extent, it’s difficult to think of another candidate who even comes close. Interestingly, Trump and his supporters have even embraced lion imagery to represent him. Trump’s lion-like roar instills fear in every single republican, many of whom walk on eggshells so as to not make him angry.

#2. The Antichrist is boastful and arrogant – Daniel 7:8, 8:25

Trump also fulfills this second description perfectly, and it’s difficult to find anyone else even in the same ballpark. Trump not only constantly brags of his own accomplishments, often exaggerating them to an extreme, but he bristles whenever he doesn’t get ALL the credit he thinks he deserves.

#3. The Antichrist denies the Father and the Son – 1 John 2:22

Trump also fulfills this third description, having famously stated that he does not seek forgiveness from God, nor does he see the need to. I’ve yet to read or hear of ANY politician who has ever openly admitted that he does not need or seek God’s forgiveness.

#4. The Antichrist is a vile person – Daniel 11:21

Trump also fulfills the fourth description, as his sordid lifestyle and propensity for denigrating and belittling other people is the very definition of vile. To be fair, although Trump is vile to an extreme, there are also other people who could also fit this particular description.

#5. The Antichrist throws truth to the ground – Daniel 8:12

Trump also fulfills the fifth description, as he has a well deserved reputation for playing fast and loose with the truth. Trump manipulates the truth to serve himself so often that many of his supporters are almost immune to what he’s doing. Once again, however, to be fair there are also other people who could be described in this particular manner.

#6. The Antichrist comes in his own name – John 5:43

Trump fulfills the sixth description so accurately that I am unable to think of anyone even remotely close. Trump used his worldwide fame to not only gain acceptance into the Christian evangelical community, but in a direct fulfillment of this bible verse, Trump is now tremendously popular and even beloved in Israel.

#7. The Antichrist has a Covenant with Many – Daniel 9:27

Trump perfectly fulfills the seventh description with his Abraham Accords, an historic agreement among Israel and her neighbors. Personally, I am looking for the Abraham Accords to be “confirmed” when Trump returns to power, with many other nations joining. No other candidate for Antichrist fulfills this requirement quite like Trump.

#8. The Antichrist loves gold – Revelation 13:18

Trump exactly fulfills the eighth description with his obvious affection for gold in his properties, products, and even to how “golden” he wants to look. The number 666 in Revelation specifically points us to King Solomon’s 666 talents of gold, and for more details please check out the video “The Mark of the Beast, Part 2”. It’s almost impossible to find another candidate for the Antichrist being as obsessed with gold as Trump is.

#9. The Antichrist honors the god of forces – Daniel 11:38

Trump perfectly fulfills the ninth description, as his properties are a virtual shrine to the god of forces, aka the sun god, down to Apollo painted on the ceiling of his Trump Tower suite. We would be hard pressed to find any other potential candidate for the Antichrist who so clearly fulfills the Daniel 11:38 prophecy.

#10. The Antichrist is called the Little Horn – Daniel 7:8

Trump precisely fulfills the tenth description, as the word “trump” itself means trumpet or little horn. I go into more details on this, and the rest of these descriptions in the video “45 Biblical Reasons That Donald J. Trump Is The Antichrist”. Once again, no other candidate comes close to matching this biblical verse about the Little Horn.

[deacon blues]

I was going to say that Trump is a lot like Joseph Smith. A least #1-9 could apply to Joseph.

[PalmSprings]

I've seen some creative interpretations using the Bible before...but this takes the cake.

[moksha]

Trump is able to make his followers believe lies, much like the Anti-Christ. The Anti-Christ is able to make Lindsey Graham plead like a manipulative schoolgirl in asking the deluded followers to send the Anti-Christ gobs of money.

[SaidNobody]

I was going to say that Trump is a lot like Joseph Smith. A least #1-9 could apply to Joseph.

Love both Joseph Smith and Trump.

[SaidNobody]

Trump is able to make his followers believe lies, much like the Anti-Christ. The Anti-Christ is able to make Lindsey Graham plead like a manipulative schoolgirl in asking the deluded followers to send the Anti-Christ gobs of money.

No one is really qualified to declare what is true. But, I was independent once. My wife just said, "Just research Hillary." Anyway, I will never vote Democrat again.

Democrats used to be the party of slavery and hate. They created the KKK. In 1898 they murdered a half dozen black politicians in Charleston, NC, and drove off the white Republicans.

In 1942 they hung and burned a black man on live TV. KKK membership when from 4.5 million to less than a hundred thousand. They had to steal a mantle of righteousness. So they publically denounced the Dixiecrats, who then made a show of joining the Republicans. But only one switched, Sturm Thurman. The other 700+ Dixiecrats stayed with the Democrat party, including Senator Bird (Grand Dragon of the KKK) and Lynden B. Johnson who was redecorating the Lincoln Room before Kennedy got shot.

Anyway, plenty of things to explore.

[SaidNobody]

Note: the following is for discussion only. I do not believe in Satan or the Antichrist.

I find it interesting that whenever there's a Democratic president, Evangelical groups start falling all over themselves finding parallels with the Antichrist. It struck me that Donald Trump's behavior fits the Antichrist mold far better than any politician before him, but I have never heard that case made in his case. Because he's Republican, I presume.

I looked around and found this list of qualities of the Antichrist from a non-Republican-oriented website:

#1. The Antichrist has the mouth of a lion – Revelation 13:2

Trump fulfills this first description of the Antichrist to such an extent, it’s difficult to think of another candidate who even comes close. Interestingly, Trump and his supporters have even embraced lion imagery to represent him. Trump’s lion-like roar instills fear in every single republican, many of whom walk on eggshells so as to not make him angry.

#2. The Antichrist is boastful and arrogant – Daniel 7:8, 8:25

Trump also fulfills this second description perfectly, and it’s difficult to find anyone else even in the same ballpark. Trump not only constantly brags of his own accomplishments, often exaggerating them to an extreme, but he bristles whenever he doesn’t get ALL the credit he thinks he deserves.

#3. The Antichrist denies the Father and the Son – 1 John 2:22

Trump also fulfills this third description, having famously stated that he does not seek forgiveness from God, nor does he see the need to. I’ve yet to read or hear of ANY politician who has ever openly admitted that he does not need or seek God’s forgiveness.

#4. The Antichrist is a vile person – Daniel 11:21

Trump also fulfills the fourth description, as his sordid lifestyle and propensity for denigrating and belittling other people is the very definition of vile. To be fair, although Trump is vile to an extreme, there are also other people who could also fit this particular description.

#5. The Antichrist throws truth to the ground – Daniel 8:12

Trump also fulfills the fifth description, as he has a well deserved reputation for playing fast and loose with the truth. Trump manipulates the truth to serve himself so often that many of his supporters are almost immune to what he’s doing. Once again, however, to be fair there are also other people who could be described in this particular manner.

#6. The Antichrist comes in his own name – John 5:43

Trump fulfills the sixth description so accurately that I am unable to think of anyone even remotely close. Trump used his worldwide fame to not only gain acceptance into the Christian evangelical community, but in a direct fulfillment of this bible verse, Trump is now tremendously popular and even beloved in Israel.

#7. The Antichrist has a Covenant with Many – Daniel 9:27

Trump perfectly fulfills the seventh description with his Abraham Accords, an historic agreement among Israel and her neighbors. Personally, I am looking for the Abraham Accords to be “confirmed” when Trump returns to power, with many other nations joining. No other candidate for Antichrist fulfills this requirement quite like Trump.

#8. The Antichrist loves gold – Revelation 13:18

Trump exactly fulfills the eighth description with his obvious affection for gold in his properties, products, and even to how “golden” he wants to look. The number 666 in Revelation specifically points us to King Solomon’s 666 talents of gold, and for more details please check out the video “The Mark of the Beast, Part 2”. It’s almost impossible to find another candidate for the Antichrist being as obsessed with gold as Trump is.

#9. The Antichrist honors the god of forces – Daniel 11:38

Trump perfectly fulfills the ninth description, as his properties are a virtual shrine to the god of forces, aka the sun god, down to Apollo painted on the ceiling of his Trump Tower suite. We would be hard pressed to find any other potential candidate for the Antichrist who so clearly fulfills the Daniel 11:38 prophecy.

#10. The Antichrist is called the Little Horn – Daniel 7:8

Trump precisely fulfills the tenth description, as the word “trump” itself means trumpet or little horn. I go into more details on this, and the rest of these descriptions in the video “45 Biblical Reasons That Donald J. Trump Is The Antichrist”. Once again, no other candidate comes close to matching this biblical verse about the Little Horn.

In my opinion, the Anti-Christ is here, but not in the way you might think.

Bear with me.

First, God is spiritual (despite what Joseph Smith said.) It stands to reason that his son is spiritual.

Through the office of Christ, all things are created.

Basically, Christ created the universe. But what spiritual force could create the universe? I believe that morals create the universe. Morals are patterns and rules that allow intelligent entities to work together. There are morals for everything. Break the morals, and things stop working.

So Christ (morals) binds people together in functional peace. The Anti-Christ breaks morals, creating distrust and dysfunction.

Comparing the Anti-Christ to a person is cliche. It was Nixon, Reagan, Joe Regan, Bush, etc, etc, etc (all Republicans). The Anti-Christ is not a person; it's a spirit. And yes, it is spreading. Dystopia is probably coming. Those that have strong morals and, thus, strong communities will probably be ok. Others will be hiding in their homes, frightened of their neighbors.

[dogbite]

What is the scale on which morals are judged as strong to weak.

And why that one?

[moksha]

Democrats used to be the party of slavery and hate.

Times have really changed. Now the KKK are Trump supporters.

[Hagoth]

I believe that morals create the universe. Morals are patterns and rules that allow intelligent entities to work together. There are morals for everything. Break the morals, and things stop working.

So Christ (morals) binds people together in functional peace. The Anti-Christ breaks morals, creating distrust and dysfunction.

Comparing the Anti-Christ to a person is cliche. It was Nixon, Reagan, Joe Regan, Bush, etc, etc, etc (all Republicans). The Anti-Christ is not a person; it's a spirit. And yes, it is spreading. Dystopia is probably coming. Those that have strong morals and, thus, strong communities will probably be ok. Others will be hiding in their homes, frightened of their neighbors.

I generally agree with this, but I replace "morals" with "laws of nature." You can't break the laws of nature but you can really mess things up by not respecting them. The Anichrist is just another boogeyman to scare people into believing in authority: Antichrist, Satan, Gozer the Gozerian, George Soros...

[SaidNobody]

Democrats used to be the party of slavery and hate.

Times have really changed. Now the KKK are Trump supporters.

buzz. It's all theater and shows. Seriously, if you owned the KKK today and wanted to use them to your advantage, would you have them show up at your rally or your opponent?

[SaidNobody]

I generally agree with this, but I replace "morals" with "laws of nature." You can't break the laws of nature but you can really mess things up by not respecting them. The Anichrist is just another boogeyman to scare people into believing in authority: Antichrist, Satan, Gozer the Gozerian, George Soros...

Morals are laws of nature, but not in the same ways as gravity or fusion. Consciousness is the fundamental element of the universe and comes in various configurations. Morals can be different from group to group. I've heard, that with some groups, it's actually an insult "NOT" to request sex with the wife. While that is different than most, it seems to work for them.

A more fundamental layer would be the need for respect, recognition, love, etc. Morals are the systems and spirits that tie various beliefs together. The "spirit of functionality" isn't a fixed law. At least, not on the level humans can understand.

But there is an anti-functionality spirit. It's a disease that can move through a functional community and destroy what they had. It's real. It's happening.

[SaidNobody]

What is the scale on which morals are judged as strong to weak.

And why that one?

The scale? I'm not sure I understand. A weak moral might be, "Don't wear white after Labor Day." Many believe it, and many haven't heard of it. To some, it's important, and most don't care.

A strong moral might be adultery. Long ago, a man might stay home to defend his wife and claim. But it was necessary for him to hunt or defend the community. So rules were made that other men would not move in on his turf if he were away. A man needed to trust that his fellow men couldn't move in on his family. So it became a crime punishable by death. When trust is needed so that the community can function, that might become punishable by death.

Like, kids die. But if a child is murdered, that would bring the community to a grinding halt; the parents would have to stay home and protect their kids. So the community will punish such crimes with the harshest measures.

[Hagoth]

Morals are laws of nature, but not in the same ways as gravity or fusion.

Gravity and fusion exactly the kinds of laws I'm talking about. Morals are sloppy because they are cultural and/or personal. Child sacrifice was highly valued in the the earliest Israelite traditions, up to the point when it became strictly forbidden and extremely immoral. Tea drinking is considered both healthy and spiritual in many traditions, but was unquestionably immoral in the tradition in which I was raised, to the point that it negated your ability to receive saving ordinances. Then I grew up, did the research, had the life experience, and changed my moral evaluation of tea. It was once very bad, and now it is very good. Who has the meter that can measure where it lies on any kind of cosmic morality scale? I can't imagine the morals of a tribe in New Guinea or Texas being particularly relevant to the octopus-spider people of Rigel 7.

[Hagoth]

p.s. As we see from the original post, anyone could be defined as the Antichrist based on someone else's morals. This is an example of how a certain group of Christians conclude Donald Trump is the Antichrist based on scripture, while another group believes he is God-sent to rescue us from the Antichrist, also based on scripture. Religion is made up and it can get very silly at times.

[SaidNobody]

Morals are laws of nature, but not in the same ways as gravity or fusion.

Gravity and fusion exactly the kinds of laws I'm talking about. Morals are sloppy because they are cultural and/or personal. Child sacrifice was highly valued in the the earliest Israelite traditions, up to the point when it became strictly forbidden and extremely immoral. Tea drinking is considered both healthy and spiritual in many traditions, but was unquestionably immoral in the tradition in which I was raised, to the point that it negated your ability to receive saving ordinances. Then I grew up, did the research, had the life experience, and changed my moral evaluation of tea. It was once very bad, and now it is very good. Who has the meter that can measure where it lies on any kind of cosmic morality scale? I can't imagine the morals of a tribe in New Guinea or Texas being particularly relevant to the octopus-spider people of Rigel 7.

Morals are laws of nature in a solid sense if you look at the nature of consciousness. For example, Disrespect isn't tolerated. But what is disrespect? Kindness is a bonding action. But what is kindness, and what is manipulation? There is an infinite number of ways to configure a system of morals. But the effectiveness of the morals is demonstrated in the strength of the culture. But take Sparta, a warrior caste system where older warriors took young boys as lovers and taught them warriors ways. The women were slaves and randomly raped to produce children. Other non-warrior members did the labor by being protected by the warriors. This was actually a robust system for 300 years.

God's first commandment: Go forth, multiply, and replenish the earth. They did this. Did the Spartan women feel disrespected, or was this their duty? Did the boys feel violated or honored? Did the laborers feel oppressed or grateful? Spartans were defeated, I believe, by outside forces. As immoral as it sounds, did nature see it as functional? America will be lucky to last 300 years.

Tea is a beautiful thing, I agree. But rejecting tea, coffee, and tobacco has created a powerful bond between Mormon people. The idea that tea is sinful is ridiculous, but the moral is very powerful. Mormons are pure in numerous ways because of the Word of Wisdom. Mormons are stronger as a group because of the Word of Wisdom. Their temples make them more robust, even if the idea behind them is ludicrous.

Separately, humans are practically helpless. As morals bind us together, we become more and more powerful. Moral bonds are more powerful and important than a single idea, such as drinking tea. Would you still drink tea if you knew it would destroy America?

Christ (morals) creates bonds, which are valuable in their own right. The anti-Christ destroys bonds, finding the reasons for the bonds to be silly or stupid.

[SaidNobody]

p.s. As we see from the original post, anyone could be defined as the Antichrist based on someone else's morals. This is an example of how a certain group of Christians conclude Donald Trump is the Antichrist based on scripture, while another group believes he is God-sent to rescue us from the Antichrist, also based on scripture. Religion is made up and it can get very silly at times.

Your point is well taken on this. If I could brag a little bit, the thing that makes me different is that I don't believe the work of Gods is done by mere mortals. Jesus wasn't the Christ, merely an agent. The antichrist is a spirit that just about anyone can have. Personally, I see Trump as trying to protect the morals. But I guess it depends on how you look at it.

[Hagoth]

Tea is a beautiful thing, I agree. But rejecting tea, coffee, and tobacco has created a powerful bond between Mormon people. The idea that tea is sinful is ridiculous, but the moral is very powerful. Mormons are pure in numerous ways because of the Word of Wisdom. Mormons are stronger as a group because of the Word of Wisdom. Their temples make them more robust, even if the idea behind them is ludicrous.

This is true, but it is a perfect illustration that morals aren't cosmic laws. Pre-modern Polynesians had the same kind of moral bonding over facial tattoos, which would be immoral by Mormon standards. A lot of people bristle at concepts like "moral relativism," but morals ARE relative. Fortunately, most cultures agree on some things that are obviously disruptive to social stability, like murder, incest, adultery, etc. Not because they were carved on Moses' tablets, but because they are sources of strife in human society.

[SaidNobody]

Tea is a beautiful thing, I agree. But rejecting tea, coffee, and tobacco has created a powerful bond between Mormon people. The idea that tea is sinful is ridiculous, but the moral is very powerful. Mormons are pure in numerous ways because of the Word of Wisdom. Mormons are stronger as a group because of the Word of Wisdom. Their temples make them more robust, even if the idea behind them is ludicrous.

This is true, but it is a perfect illustration that morals aren't cosmic laws. Pre-modern Polynesians had the same kind of moral bonding over facial tattoos, which would be immoral by Mormon standards. A lot of people bristle at concepts like "moral relativism," but morals ARE relative. Fortunately, most cultures agree on some things that are obviously disruptive to social stability, like murder, incest, adultery, etc. Not because they were carved on Moses' tablets, but because they are sources of strife in human society.

Morals are cosmic law in the sense of a game of jeopardy. Maybe you say, "5," and I say, "What is 4+1? Or I could say, "What is 7-2?" There are infinite ways to come up with 5, but they must all be true.

You might say, "Trust and respect," and I might say, "What is shared facial tattoo art or rejection of tea?" How you come up with "trust and respect" doesn't matter, but however you do it, it will be true.

In this sense, morals are cosmic law. However your produce the bond, it will be true even if the elements of the bond are illusions. Example: I am the son of God; trust me. The truth wouldn't be that I am the son of God, but rather that someone believes I am the son of God. The power of the bond is in the faith, not the fact.