The Church needs a transcendent moment

Discussions about holding onto your faith and beliefs, whether by staying LDS or by exploring and participating in other churches or faiths. The belief in any higher power (including God, Christ, Buddha, or Jedi) is true in this forum. Be kind to others.
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moksha
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The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by moksha » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:20 am

The Church needs a transcendent moment. A moment where it can reach down deep inside and banish all hatreds and set misinformation and misdeeds to right. A moment where it can call forth new truth and establish being Mormon as a spiritually fulfilling experience to nourish all willing to participate.

How could that transcendent moment arrive? Could the Mormon entrepreneurial company, Franklin Covey, reach down into its bag of tricks and produce 7 habits that would transform Mormon leaders? Possibly, but I think the most likely way would be for the simple goodness and honesty of the rank and file to somehow percolate up and lend inspiration to the top through example. From there the slow, inexorable process of change needs to take place.

As it stands, it is like the tail wagging the dog and the tail has palsy much to the detriment of the dog.

Your thoughts?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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FreeFallin
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Post by FreeFallin » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:26 am

**deleted by user - Apologies for posting inappropriate comment in the Staying Faithful thread.
Last edited by FreeFallin on Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Red Ryder
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Re: The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:40 am

I agree with FreeFallin (welcome back btw)!

But for the sake of honest entertainment, let's tickle this a little.

The first thing that would need to happen is for a prophet (not a PR church spokesman) to get up in a special fireside and begin to dismantle the core problems.

1. This prophet will tell everyone that garments will only be worn in the temple during temple ceremonies. He will explain that they will no longer be worn to designate the "worthy" from the "unworthy" and apologize to every single person who has been judged by their underwear. While at it, he will apologize for every garment wedgie, every killed moment of romance, and every rash resulting from the poor design, horrible fabrics , and mandatory compliance.

2. After the shock, awe, and standing ovation of #1 dies down, the same prophet will turn the time over to the CFO (whoever he is) and present consolidated financial statements to the membership body who has donated. He will offer anyone a refund who so desires plus interest of 10%.

3. He will implement a world wide eternal ban on blessing refreshments. Especially donuts, cookies, and other poorly home made sugary treats that do not nourish and strengthen the body.

4. He will toss out the second hour of the block and make the third hour optional.

5. The gymnasium floors will be resurfaced with sand so that every future wedding reception will appear as if it was on the beach rather than a basketball court. One intended consequence of this is the elimination of all church basketball which would reduce the number of fights, harsh words, and bad referees. Beach volleyball night will take it's place for cultural purposes. Bikini's and board shorts are optional but will not be turned away. Well, unless the super old widows wear them to inappropriately seduce the unmarried return missionaries.

At this point, Mormonism would be flipped on its head and the current membership would believe the second coming is at hand. Fear, uncertainty, and food storage shortages would take over and all progress would be lost.
Elder Nelson seems to have somehow become the mouthpiece of the mouthpiece of God. ~ Hagoth

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Mormorrisey
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Re: The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:17 pm

That's a great list of what transcendence looks like, RR. The one doctrine I'd love to see replaced, and I'm convinced that this would speed along the transcendence moshka is talking about, is that contention is of the devil. While I quite agree with the sentiment on a general level, particularly given a certain event my neighbours to the south are experiencing, the doctrine shuts off any debate, question or challenge to the status quo. As soon as mormons start feeling the cog dis, (otherwise known as "a dark feeling") they shut down ALL information that is making them feel that way, regardless of the truthfulness of the statement being made. I think from the leadership on down, once they start getting the idea that alternate viewpoints aren't necessarily from Satan, progress and transcendence can take place. But as long as the Oaks mantra is chanted that "all criticism of leaders is wrong, even if the criticism is true," I'm afraid I'm dubious as to any transcendent moment. Although I do hold out hope.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Corsair
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Re: The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by Corsair » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:03 pm

The claim we regularly hear in church is that the church definitely had that transcendent moment back in the spring of 1820 with the First Vision. It continued with the "translation" of the Book of Mormon and other scriptures. Then having temple covenants restored constitutes the transcendence trifecta that all you apostates seem to be missing. The restoration is ongoing and there is something wrong with you if you are not getting your slice of transcendence served up weekly in the ward meetings you seem to be missing. You could fill your temple bag with transcendence if you showed up for an endowment session. What did you think transcendence from the One True Church actually looked like?

I may need a drink after channeling that much TBM logic.

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Snowdrop
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Re: The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by Snowdrop » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:01 pm

I think that in order for the church to have a transcendent moment it needs to rid itself of the idea that if something makes you feel bad it's of Satan and you need to start doing something else immediately.

As a freshman at BYU I took a film class from a beautifully controversial professor during which we watched a film that helped me to feel transcendence for the first time. The film was painful,tragic, and raw. It had me sobbing multiple times before the end. Yet by the time I had allowed myself to feel horrible, I was able to at least partially comprehend elation at the end. It was by no means a picturebook happy ending, but it nourished the soul.

After having watched the film, we discussed it as a group. To my shock, what had been a deeply moving, even spiritual, experience for me was borderline blasphemous to the majority of my classmates. I think that this was in large part because they did not allow themselves to feel things that were uncomfortable. I think that this small sample of BYU students could easily be representative of the church as a whole.

When the church stops dismissing deep emotions as the work of Satan and allows members to move emotionally past the point of needing a happy ending to feel fulfilled only then will it be able to have a transcendent moment.
I don't believe we were born to be sheep in a flock
To pantomime prayers with the hands of a clock
- Paul Simon

well wandered
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Re: The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by well wandered » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:32 am

Nice thread. The Church seemed a lot more warm and inviting when it was still trying to save every single person- like shepherds going after the one lost.

I've noticed a tone shift that's more defensive and xenophobic. We've always had lessons on the differences between being Mormon and non-Mormon. But they used to be more from the "non-LDS folk don't know any better" angle, and the focus was setting an example to bring others in. We seem to be shifting towards judging and protecting ourselves from non-Mormons, measured by their unfaithfulness to our tenets.

I think we're playing prevent defense like we're ahead in the fourth quarter, when the end goal of being the stone cut out of the mountain that fills the earth is like an old memory. It was exciting playing to win, but trying to protect and preserve our members and resources from the opponent (non-members) grts exhausting.

Somewhere along the line the church lost sight of a big picture, and started focusing on just doing what we need to to survive. Survival is a very repetitive process.

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moksha
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Re: The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by moksha » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:51 pm

I am still awaiting a rebirth of wonder. I want something I can more wholeheartedly believe in without an approach/avoidance thing going on.

If the LDS Church were to throw out or demote its more obvious falsehoods and strive for practices that would make us more loving, would we start to look a lot like the Community of Christ?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Give It Time
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Re: The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by Give It Time » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:24 am

Just a few random thoughts.

1. I've been thinking about the very earliest days if the church and how the members of if felt a sense of ownership for it.
Imagine a church where you can get inspiration about an idea, approach of program to the prophet and he'll take it to the Lord. Now, there's some bad I could say about this approach, but I think there's more good. I'm going to dwell on the good, right now. This very practice has me thinking, I don't Joseph Smith could be considered a cult leader because of this one practice. He was a bunch of other things, but I think the cult leader description is a better fit for Brigham. After his tenure, authoritarianism replaced inspiration. I think it's an interesting way Joseph still encouraged personal revelation, but had people bring those good ideas to him.

2. I was struck by this post
Snowdrop wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:01 pm
I think that in order for the church to have a transcendent moment it needs to rid itself of the idea that if something makes you feel bad it's of Satan and you need to start doing something else immediately.

As a freshman at BYU I took a film class from a beautifully controversial professor during which we watched a film that helped me to feel transcendence for the first time. The film was painful,tragic, and raw. It had me sobbing multiple times before the end. Yet by the time I had allowed myself to feel horrible, I was able to at least partially comprehend elation at the end. It was by no means a picturebook happy ending, but it nourished the soul.

After having watched the film, we discussed it as a group. To my shock, what had been a deeply moving, even spiritual, experience for me was borderline blasphemous to the majority of my classmates. I think that this was in large part because they did not allow themselves to feel things that were uncomfortable. I think that this small sample of BYU students could easily be representative of the church as a whole.

When the church stops dismissing deep emotions as the work of Satan and allows members to move emotionally past the point of needing a happy ending to feel fulfilled only then will it be able to have a transcendent moment.
I'm having a minor operation, soon. On the road of life, if is something akin to a flat tire. Yet, there are people in my life who are turning this flat tire into something more like plowing a sports car under a semi. Yet, these same people will take a serious issue and completely dismiss it. They won't address it. They won't face it. I think it's interesting how people--not just Mormons horrible-ize something minimal and minimize something horrible. I do think it is something about not being equipped to handle the deep things.

3. The Relief Society and the Visiting Teachers are the two most under-utilized resources in the church. I'm not talking about giving the women the priesthood, on this post. I'm talking about giving the women back their organization. Let them figure out what they need to be doing and how. I was thinking about how I once needed a ride to a hospital an hour away, because that's where the specialist was located. I wasn't able to drive myself. I couldn't get that ride. No one was able to give me that ride. Yet, I had plenty of offers to bring in dinner. I can order pizza, but I couldn't get myself to the hospital. The service the Relief Society renders is on the track to becoming obsolete. The forms of help they offer need to be brought into the 21st century.

Stop with the weird spying, prying and in home indoctrination and control. Teach the women useful skills like first aid or emotional triage for trauma survivors and let the visiting teachers be the blessings they want to be.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Give It Time
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Re: The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by Give It Time » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:17 pm

I wanted to ammend my post, anyway. Busy and distracted, this morning. Posted without answering the question.

Moksha, most change seems to accompany a catastrophic event. As long as the church can look at its coffers, pews and numbers and see statistics that warm their hearts, they aren't going to change. In fact, I wouldn't bank on it, anyway.

Case in point. One would think Elder Oaks would be morally devastated at the news of the gay suicides. He isn't. He says our doctrines are what they are and it isn't our fault if they choose to commit suicide. They say the same thing about abuse. I know, because I've heard them and I've said it myself.

My parents had five children. I know four of us believe my father killed my mother. I don't know about the fifth, we don't talk. Three of my siblings remained in the church and made no changes to the toxic situations in their marriages. One sibling was already out of the church and was making changes to the toxic situation in his marriage. His changes have nothing to do with my parents' drama. He and my sister--half of my siblings have been supportive of my decisions.

So, there it is. Five people who went through a nearly identical situation, but we all chose to react to it differently. One brother is angry. One brother didn't like my mother and was actually kind of glad. My sister recognizes the suspect behavior of my father, but is in complete denial. My brother who doesn't talk to us was angry about my father's affair, but we haven't talked about the rest. I am the only one who looked at the situation and saw it as a wake-up call.

Even though the transcedent moment occurs, there's no guarantee there'll be change.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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PalmSprings
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Re: The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by PalmSprings » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:01 am

Give It Time wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:24 am
Stop with the weird spying, prying and in home indoctrination and control. Teach the women useful skills like first aid or emotional triage for trauma survivors and let the visiting teachers be the blessings they want to be.

Even though the transcedent moment occurs, there's no guarantee there'll be change.
I think these two thoughts put together nail it for me. The church doesn't necessarily need a "big bang" type event if you will. It needs a complete overhaul and it usually takes a long time to turn a big ship around. I agree, the spying prying etc. needs to stop. But it is so ingrained in the Mormon culture that it would take 2 or 3 generations for it to go away.
""

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Newme
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Re: The Church needs a transcendent moment

Post by Newme » Sun May 28, 2017 2:22 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:51 pm
I am still awaiting a rebirth of wonder. I want something I can more wholeheartedly believe in without an approach/avoidance thing going on.

If the LDS Church were to throw out or demote its more obvious falsehoods and strive for practices that would make us more loving, would we start to look a lot like the Community of Christ?
I think it's a beautiful thought to wonder how the church would be more authentically Christ-like. However, I see hope more on an individual basis rather than way up at the top.

What can you (I) wholeheartedly believe in?
God, as you understand God now (knowing you'll learn more throughout your life).
Believe that God is pure love that you crave, a source of fulfillment found nowhere else.
Believe in yourself - your intellectual and intuitive abilities that help you enjoy and contribute in the best ways you can.

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