There Is No Plan

Discussions about holding onto your faith and beliefs, whether by staying LDS or by exploring and participating in other churches or faiths. The belief in any higher power (including God, Christ, Buddha, or Jedi) is true in this forum. Be kind to others.
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SaidNobody
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by SaidNobody » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:58 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:09 am
Actually, my point is, if the concept of god was built on anything that is an actual entity, then it would have consistency throughout history. The simple fact that it changes radically throughout history shows that what someone's idea of it is changes radically and constantly.

To put it in another way: Someone looks at a tree. The exact details of how they describe it vary, but if it is someone in ancient Egypt or modern South America, it is still easy to tell that at the root of the description, it is still a tree in one form or another. All descriptions basically will not vary much n the core details.

For a description of god throughout history, descriptions vary WILDLY! It is like one person describing an oak tree and another person describing a dog. They are nothing alike in their core details. If there actually is a god, then the core elements of that god would be consistent throughout history. But since the descriptions are that far apart, the only real logical conclusion is that they are describing different things. They are not the same god that various groups throughout history are talking about. From there using Occam's Razor, there are only a couple possible conclusions.

People may or may not have a need to believe in something beyond them, but the best conclusion based on the evidence is that they create their own idea of what that higher power is based on their environment. It is not based on a single entity, (or group of entities) or descriptions would be more consistent.
For the sake of simplicity.
Let's call our "imagination" God. All animals have brains, but. . . . not necessarily imagination.
When our ancestors first became superstitious, it began to develop their imagination. As this imagination grew, so did the idea of God. In fact, you might say, the Imagination and God sort of developed each other. As we imagined God, God in turned causes our mind/brain/imagination to grow and try to explain our world.

The thing that God is based on, isn't solid to start with. God isn't based on a tree, so you are right, later generations cannot compare. God will change as the imagination changes.

But the imagination and God are, hitherto now, symbiotic. There is something mystical about consciousness. It creates imagination, and it can react to imagination as if it is real. (Trust me, I have a sensitive 10 year old.)

The "form of God" isn't anything like a tree. It is, quite literally, an idea passed down from parent to child. But, if you took a child and tossed them into the wild, they wouldn't have the idea of God. They would become like the other animals. God, is a mental space passed down.

God is also, the imagination exploring it's self. The imagination is everything God claims to be, infinite, all powerful, etc. We create our civilization with it.

However, there is a "reality" about what the imagination is. it might a be a product of the brain, but it is more then the brain. It's like a humans are animals of earth, but we are also evolving beyond that. We will be doing space travel soon.

The "half god/half man" is sort of explained in the imagination/body relationship.

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Newme
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by Newme » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:32 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:33 pm
Newme wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:25 pm
SaidNobody wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:21 pm
Scientists will be scratching their head for many years to come. This is because they refuse to look at the most sophisticated expression of life that we know of. They refuse to acknowledge that the most advanced species ever discovered all worship gods. They refuse to acknowledge that for the entire span of recordable history humans have used gods to build their civilizations around.

They refuse to acknowledge that the greatest engine of ideas as a place of real consequence. That the imagination has more power than all the facts in the universe combined.
The I AM THAT I AM - or consciousness behind the consciousness - is such a part of our being that it's too often ignored or dismissed.
Gottfried Leibniz explained the difference between seeing brain activity on an EEG and a person having mental thoughts or images.
There are some things that are definitely a part of experience - yet are not really something that can be studied with scientific tools.
So, it seems that many who insist on using scientific tools for everything - as if they are using a hammer to tap into blue-tooth - and since it doesn't work, they assume blue tooth is as ridiculous as its name. :D
I like this. The Chinese have a saying I will paraphrase. Trying to explain chi to a skeptical person who doesn't believe in it because he can't discern it with his senses is like trying to explain the ocean to a skeptical fish who can't discern the water with his senses.
Nice analogy.

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Give It Time
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by Give It Time » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:15 pm

Newme wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:32 pm
Give It Time wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:33 pm
Newme wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:25 pm

The I AM THAT I AM - or consciousness behind the consciousness - is such a part of our being that it's too often ignored or dismissed.
Gottfried Leibniz explained the difference between seeing brain activity on an EEG and a person having mental thoughts or images.
There are some things that are definitely a part of experience - yet are not really something that can be studied with scientific tools.
So, it seems that many who insist on using scientific tools for everything - as if they are using a hammer to tap into blue-tooth - and since it doesn't work, they assume blue tooth is as ridiculous as its name. :D
I like this. The Chinese have a saying I will paraphrase. Trying to explain chi to a skeptical person who doesn't believe in it because he can't discern it with his senses is like trying to explain the ocean to a skeptical fish who can't discern the water with his senses.
Nice analogy.

Thank you. :D
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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SaidNobody
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:49 pm

Anyway, back to the plan. There are different layers of design. It is simply how Consciousness works. You start with a vague understanding of the need and you build a plan to achieve it. When you start life, you have a plan. It is automatically programmed into your DNA. How you manifest that plan is a choice and life-long work. But everyone more or less works for it's the same end. To fulfill the desires of their heart. Some will do it well, some will fail miserably.

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alas
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by alas » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:13 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:49 pm
Anyway, back to the plan. There are different layers of design. It is simply how Consciousness works. You start with a vague understanding of the need and you build a plan to achieve it. When you start life, you have a plan. It is automatically programmed into your DNA. How you manifest that plan is a choice and life-long work. But everyone more or less works for it's the same end. To fulfill the desires of their heart. Some will do it well, some will fail miserably.
I can accept that we have a plan programmed into our DNA. I can even accept that as we grow, we have conscious and unconscious plans. I knew too many clients who had the uncouscious life plan of destroying themselves, to believe that we don't have known and unknown life plans.

What I don't accept is that some all powerful being has a plan for each of us that is all about obeying, and obeying, and being taught lessons by having crappy things happen to us that God causes just to teach us. I think we do learn and grow, or we get demolished by the crappy things that happen, I just don't think that God causes the things because he has a plan for our life.

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SaidNobody
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by SaidNobody » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:34 am

alas wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:13 am

I can accept that we have a plan programmed into our DNA. I can even accept that as we grow, we have conscious and unconscious plans. I knew too many clients who had the uncouscious life plan of destroying themselves, to believe that we don't have known and unknown life plans.

What I don't accept is that some all powerful being has a plan for each of us that is all about obeying, and obeying, and being taught lessons by having crappy things happen to us that God causes just to teach us. I think we do learn and grow, or we get demolished by the crappy things that happen, I just don't think that God causes the things because he has a plan for our life.
Hey alas, (spg here) it's been a while. Howdy.

As I see it. There is an eternal, unchangeable, design of life. It is what creates consciousness. And that design does not change. In the conscious layer, any choice can be made. There is no justification need. Once that desire moves into effect, the laws of Life must apply. People who willingly and subconsciously destroy themselves are trying to achieve something. It is like the sick person who gets the attention they seek by being sick. Everyone is seeking what they want.

In a very real sense, Once the desire is made known the plan to achieve it is laid out. If I am going to find my happiness and choose to do so by being sick, there is a path for that and suffering to be had for that.

My personality is an extension of a deeper desire to get the things that are wanted. My entire life is to get something for a deeper awareness that creates me. It is me, and yet it is more than me. The subconscious that rules our life is something that we have not yet found solid ways to override.

One of the reasons, that people struggle with the idea of God, is that they don't believe that such a Consciousness could already be inside of them, deeper down. I have seen it. It is everything that God claims to be. And it is in all of us. Below the surface.

That person who is so Twisted that Society cannot understand them, struggles with the desire that comes from deep within. Something beyond their control. We don't yet want to give scientific names to this stuff. We want to call it disorders as a blanket term. But there is a living Force within us that is far more then what gets up and brushes our teeth in the morning.

Imho, of course.

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SaidNobody
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by SaidNobody » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:37 am

alas wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:13 am

I can accept that we have a plan programmed into our DNA. I can even accept that as we grow, we have conscious and unconscious plans. I knew too many clients who had the uncouscious life plan of destroying themselves, to believe that we don't have known and unknown life plans.

What I don't accept is that some all powerful being has a plan for each of us that is all about obeying, and obeying, and being taught lessons by having crappy things happen to us that God causes just to teach us. I think we do learn and grow, or we get demolished by the crappy things that happen, I just don't think that God causes the things because he has a plan for our life.
Hey alas, (spg here) it's been a while. Howdy.

As I see it. There is an eternal, unchangeable, design of life. It is what creates consciousness. And that design does not change. In the conscious layer, any choice can be made. There is no justification needed. Once that desire moves into effect, the laws of Life must apply. People who willingly and subconsciously destroy themselves are trying to achieve something. It is like the sick person who gets the attention they seek by being sick. Everyone is seeking what they want.

In a very real sense, Once the desire is made known the plan to achieve it is laid out. If I am going to find my happiness and choose to do so by being sick, there is a path for that and suffering to be had for that.

My personality is an extension of a deeper desire to get the things that are wanted. My entire life is to get something for a deeper awareness that creates me. It is me, and yet it is more than me. The subconscious that rules our life is something that we have not yet found solid ways to override.

One of the reasons, that people struggle with the idea of God, is that they don't believe that such a Consciousness could already be inside of them, deeper down. I have seen it. It is everything that God claims to be. And it is in all of us. Below the surface.

That person who is so Twisted that Society cannot understand them, struggles with the desire that comes from deep within. Something beyond their control. We don't yet want to give scientific names to this stuff. We want to call it disorders as a blanket term. But there is a living Force within us that is far more then what gets up and brushes our teeth in the morning.

Imho, of course.

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alas
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by alas » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:17 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:37 am
alas wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:13 am

I can accept that we have a plan programmed into our DNA. I can even accept that as we grow, we have conscious and unconscious plans. I knew too many clients who had the uncouscious life plan of destroying themselves, to believe that we don't have known and unknown life plans.

What I don't accept is that some all powerful being has a plan for each of us that is all about obeying, and obeying, and being taught lessons by having crappy things happen to us that God causes just to teach us. I think we do learn and grow, or we get demolished by the crappy things that happen, I just don't think that God causes the things because he has a plan for our life.
Hey alas, (spg here) it's been a while. Howdy.

As I see it. There is an eternal, unchangeable, design of life. It is what creates consciousness. And that design does not change. In the conscious layer, any choice can be made. There is no justification needed. Once that desire moves into effect, the laws of Life must apply. People who willingly and subconsciously destroy themselves are trying to achieve something. It is like the sick person who gets the attention they seek by being sick. Everyone is seeking what they want.

In a very real sense, Once the desire is made known the plan to achieve it is laid out. If I am going to find my happiness and choose to do so by being sick, there is a path for that and suffering to be had for that.

My personality is an extension of a deeper desire to get the things that are wanted. My entire life is to get something for a deeper awareness that creates me. It is me, and yet it is more than me. The subconscious that rules our life is something that we have not yet found solid ways to override.

One of the reasons, that people struggle with the idea of God, is that they don't believe that such a Consciousness could already be inside of them, deeper down. I have seen it. It is everything that God claims to be. And it is in all of us. Below the surface.

That person who is so Twisted that Society cannot understand them, struggles with the desire that comes from deep within. Something beyond their control. We don't yet want to give scientific names to this stuff. We want to call it disorders as a blanket term. But there is a living Force within us that is far more then what gets up and brushes our teeth in the morning.

Imho, of course.

I said hi in another thread where you said the handle you used to use. I had started to wonder if this was you because it just started sounding like you. That same old needle people to get them talking to defend how they think.

And Yes to what you said above. My clients who were partly, subconsciously trying to destroy their life, were not really trying to destroy anything. They wanted to be proven wrong. They hated themselves and wanted to have that proven wrong. Or, they were so afraid that if they failed, no one would love them, so they "failed" by falling down in the race so it looked like not their fault and they were still lovable. So, sort of like the teenager who overdoses on too many pills five minutes before mom comes home, does not want to die. They want mom to come home, find them and care! They feel like they are not loved, and they want that feeling proved wrong.

So, we have a plan, but it is often more complex than we even understand ourselves. To help my clients, I had to figure out their plan, and make the plan obvious, so they could see if what they were doing was really going to work according to plan, or if they were leaving out important parts.

Like the kid who falls down in the race so losing isn't his fault. Maybe dad would still be proud if the kid came in last, but at least tried their best. And maybe they would actually feel better about themselves if they did not purposely fall down. Because THEY know they are purposely falling down, so losing the race is really their fault. Or maybe they can accept that they are not the fastest kid and that is fine cause they are the smartest.

I think the plan we are all born with is taught by child development specialists, but is often even more basic than they teach. Our plan is just basic stuff like grow up developing competence, learn stuff, find friends and community, find love and sex, have children and raise them.

But life throws a wrench into the works when our parents are ...um...not optimal. Then growing up with the security we need to venture out and become competent is complicated. We may learn the opposite of what we should. One child expert said there were age appropriate goals, say to learn that we can trust people. When we have less than adequate parents, we learn to distrust. He said that there was one time period in which the child can learn it, or the child is forever damaged. Me, I disagree. I think the plan just has a temporary wrench thrown into the works. Years later, we can go back, and find where and why the plan got derailed and work to fix it. It may not be a perfect fix, but it can get the plan back on track.

Because we are the only ones in charge of our plan, and no "God" is going to come along with his plan and cause us to get back on track. We have to figure it out and do the work. Maybe we do have help from other people, or even what we would call God, but that is help, not picking up up and putting us back on track.

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SaidNobody
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by SaidNobody » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:13 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:17 am

Because we are the only ones in charge of our plan, and no "God" is going to come along with his plan and cause us to get back on track. We have to figure it out and do the work. Maybe we do have help from other people, or even what we would call God, but that is help, not picking up up and putting us back on track.
There is a mathematical precision to life. Even if it looks sloppy and messy, random and chaotic, everything has a cause.

God has long since stopped being the old man in the sky for me. Scientists like to call God a "God of Ignorance." Meaning that God is the sum total of what we don't know. And well, because I know nothing, God is huge for me.

We might know the sun comes up and why the oceans seem wet, but what does a person walking one way suddenly change and go another? If Jesus had died in child birth, would the world be different or would some one played the part to the same result?

To a pebble in a rock slide, things might seem chaotic, but there is a plan and more or less, everyone will be placed with mathematical precision to place they will be. By being part of the Mormon faith, it made me a certain way. I didn't choose everything that happened to me. The plan of the Mormons changed me in ways I couldn't have done on my own.

In other words, we choose to be part a plan that doesn't always care what we choose. Coming to earth lays out a lot of design that I have no control over. Being male lays out a lot of design I have no control over.

Do you still feel in control?

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Give It Time
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by Give It Time » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:53 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:13 pm
alas wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:17 am

Because we are the only ones in charge of our plan, and no "God" is going to come along with his plan and cause us to get back on track. We have to figure it out and do the work. Maybe we do have help from other people, or even what we would call God, but that is help, not picking up up and putting us back on track.
There is a mathematical precision to life. Even if it looks sloppy and messy, random and chaotic, everything has a cause.

God has long since stopped being the old man in the sky for me. Scientists like to call God a "God of Ignorance." Meaning that God is the sum total of what we don't know. And well, because I know nothing, God is huge for me.

We might know the sun comes up and why the oceans seem wet, but what does a person walking one way suddenly change and go another? If Jesus had died in child birth, would the world be different or would some one played the part to the same result?

To a pebble in a rock slide, things might seem chaotic, but there is a plan and more or less, everyone will be placed with mathematical precision to place they will be. By being part of the Mormon faith, it made me a certain way. I didn't choose everything that happened to me. The plan of the Mormons changed me in ways I couldn't have done on my own.

In other words, we choose to be part a plan that doesn't always care what we choose. Coming to earth lays out a lot of design that I have no control over. Being male lays out a lot of design I have no control over.

Do you still feel in control?
Your views are actually very Taoist and I find myself agreeing with them, or at least seeing your point. Just as a formerly single female who has spent many a wretched dateless weekend night wondering what the big picture was so I could face the trial of this rejection better and having to listen to many a roommate do the same. Then my co-worker with the health issues asking this. I really think the idea of a grand plan can be kind of paralyzing and damaging.

I know it's not fun to be the rock in the rock slide, but you described the Taoist statement that the universe is pragmatic, very well. It's nothing personal. There's no sin. There's nothing to be learned. It's just the universe doing it's thing to survive and you just happen to be a rock in the rock slide. Things will eventually stop moving or you could be one of those rocks positioned to just keep sliding deeper down into the open fault line. Just the way it is. No sin. Nothing to learn (unless you want). If there's anything to learn, at all, if it isn't great, what are you doing about it? That's also Taoist (not Taoism, Taoist). Don't like this path? Choose another.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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SaidNobody
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by SaidNobody » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:10 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:53 pm


I know it's not fun to be the rock in the rock slide, but you described the Taoist statement that the universe is pragmatic, very well. It's nothing personal. There's no sin. There's nothing to be learned. It's just the universe doing it's thing to survive and you just happen to be a rock in the rock slide. Things will eventually stop moving or you could be one of those rocks positioned to just keep sliding deeper down into the open fault line. Just the way it is. No sin. Nothing to learn (unless you want). If there's anything to learn, at all, if it isn't great, what are you doing about it? That's also Taoist (not Taoism, Taoist). Don't like this path? Choose another.
I'm going with the "layers" ideas. From stories I've read, there is the physical and the conscious. The rock will move with the landslide, but you pick which rock you want to experience. You also decide how you want view experience. As I mature, I can handle the typical crappy day with a smile.

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Give It Time
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by Give It Time » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:15 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:10 pm
Give It Time wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:53 pm


I know it's not fun to be the rock in the rock slide, but you described the Taoist statement that the universe is pragmatic, very well. It's nothing personal. There's no sin. There's nothing to be learned. It's just the universe doing it's thing to survive and you just happen to be a rock in the rock slide. Things will eventually stop moving or you could be one of those rocks positioned to just keep sliding deeper down into the open fault line. Just the way it is. No sin. Nothing to learn (unless you want). If there's anything to learn, at all, if it isn't great, what are you doing about it? That's also Taoist (not Taoism, Taoist). Don't like this path? Choose another.
I'm going with the "layers" ideas. From stories I've read, there is the physical and the conscious. The rock will move with the landslide, but you pick which rock you want to experience. You also decide how you want view experience. As I mature, I can handle the typical crappy day with a smile.
Sounds good.☺
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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SaidNobody
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by SaidNobody » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:30 pm

The difference between plan and design is debatable. I think both words imply intelligent intent.

Many prominent quantum physicists acknowledge intelligent structure. The structure of the universe is pretty cool. Definitely smarter than anything we could think up. But, it seems unlikely that something "designed it." But..... The Universe designs things. Life has a pretty specific set of requirements. Life on earth has specific requirements. Humans have specific requirements. The are requirements for Americans, Mormons, genders, etc. And more personally, every person has their own set of requirements.

Finding plan is part of the plan. The Universe becoming aware of itself is the plan. We are all part of that.

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Give It Time
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Re: There Is No Plan

Post by Give It Time » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:39 pm

You found your avatar!

I was thinking about this topic, today. My coworker has another health problem. She'll probably have another surgery. She's had conditions and diseases non-stop for the last two years. She's trying to figure out what God wants her to learn so this can stop. What I truly have to say wouldn't comfort her and we aren't really supposed to discuss religion at work.

Part of me suspects she's using these questions as a missionary opportunity. She knows I don't believe. And I get the feeeling shes trying to point out the futlity and hopelessness of my beliefs, but she doesn't know what my beliefs are. I've talked to bishops when I believed and the only thing they could tell me was too have faith. Not anything better than I would say.

I would tell her that trying to figure out what she is supposed to learn is going to give her analysis paralysis. Instead, look at solutions and ways to be productive despite her limitations. Perhaps clean up her diet a bit, but she isn't really unhealthy, despite her many health woes. Maybe take this time of copious amounts of bed-rest and write emails to shut ins or crochet toys for preemies or something. Do some family history or talk to het bishop about service she can do while confined to bed-rest.

That's why I started this thread, actually. Being Taoist, I believe each of us has a path and that path has an end point, so if one sticks to a path, there is a certain destination, or destiny, if you will. We can change our destiny by changing our path. However, spending hours contemplating the road map becomes an exercise in diminishing returns. So, just get up and walk.

I guess I just find it frustrating, because I used to sit with that analysis paralysis and let indecision make up my mind for me. So, maybe it's not there's no plan, it's more put the map away and get moving.

I do like the idea of suggesting she go to her bishop and asking if there is any service she can do while she's limited. I think she'll go for that.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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