If I were an atheist

Discussions about holding onto your faith and beliefs, whether by staying LDS or by exploring and participating in other churches or faiths. The belief in any higher power (including God, Christ, Buddha, or Jedi) is true in this forum. Be kind to others.
dogbite
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by dogbite » Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:36 pm

In your view what differentiates faith from knowledge?

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SaidNobody
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by SaidNobody » Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:24 pm

dogbite wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:36 pm
In your view what differentiates faith from knowledge?
Knowledge is encapsulated belief and faith. It's the "form of godliness but denies the power thereof."

Say I practice my faith and come up with a method is making a sandwich. Out of àn infinite number of possible recipes, I define one. I write it down, maybe even publish it. This is method and pattern without the belief or faith. It could be dead knowledge if no one can read it or understand it.

Say that a woman writes a book on to have a baby. That is knowledge. You can read it. You might even understand it, (assuming you are a man) but you couldn't use it to have a child.

Brief must originate from a point of need or desire, and then walk a path to obtainment. Faith is a mixture of belief and will. Brief can be developed from knowledge, but the knowledge must be integrated into the consciousness as brief. You might get the knowledge of how to get to work from the GPS but the belief and faith to get there comes from within; do you have transportation, are the roads safe, do you have speeding tickets? Knowledge of how to do something is a small party of the ability to do it.

I have faith and belief that I can do many things that I have no knowledge of how to do. I have tools that give me the faith to salle-forth without knowledge of what I will face tomorrow.

dogbite
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by dogbite » Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:33 pm

Being a form of godliness, is knowledge conscious?

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SaidNobody
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by SaidNobody » Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:04 am

dogbite wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:33 pm
Being a form of godliness, is knowledge conscious?
In a way, yes. That is sort of like asking, "could the binary code that creates artificial intelligence be conscious?"

God is sort of like a Sandy Beach, and knowledge like the footprints in the sand. The very shape of the footprints is the knowledge and it's shape makes it presents known in the sand. But that is on a rather deep and technical level. On a human level, knowledge can be dead. It can be written on the walls of some ancient monument and no one knows how to read it or understand it. It might describe some wonderful secret but without a mind to impress itself upon, it is nothing.

I think that knowledge is a form of consciousness, but then I think that rocks also have a form of consciousness. But I do not think the knowledge necessarily has to be alive. Faith and belief on the other hand must have a living consciousness to operate. Knowledge can be the corpse of faith and belief, but for faith and believe to actually exist it must be in a living mind.

dogbite
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by dogbite » Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:53 am

So you are describing some form of panpsychism.

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Hagoth
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by Hagoth » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:12 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:24 pm
I have faith and belief that I can do many things that I have no knowledge of how to do. I have tools that give me the faith to salle-forth without knowledge of what I will face tomorrow.
That's a very good point. Of course, knowledge and faith are bounded by reality (I think!). I mean, you can sally forth into your day and deal with the problems that arise, but if you decide to sally forth across San Francisco Bay, please give me a call. I want to see it.
dogbite wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:53 am
So you are describing some form of panpsychism.
For me, panscychism or pantheism makes the most sense for whatever could be called God. From our sense that there is Something Bigger out there, we create images of the unknowable that we can wrap our tiny electric meatloaf brains around - gods and goddesses. Theists don't see that as any different from atheism, but it really is if you can give up the idea of magic sky people.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

dogbite
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by dogbite » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:42 am

Since you view belief as prime, do other people and things exist independent of your belief in them?n

Are they believed into existence by something else instead?

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SaidNobody
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by SaidNobody » Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:11 am

dogbite wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:42 am
Since you view belief as prime, do other people and things exist independent of your belief in them?n

Are they believed into existence by something else instead?
God is the root consciousness. I imagine there are dozens of different layers of existence that must be in place before creatures like me can even take a step. I did not imagine these other creatures, and yet, as God is my source, I did. Deep inside of my consciousness is more or less all consciousness. We have connections on levels that we do not consciously interact with. This is of course a belief. There are special healers and readers of sorts, that can read the emotions of your ancestors. It might be trash, but the idea is intriguing. They call it in some circles, cellular memory. The idea of cellular memory has different meanings on different circles. I have talked to people with schizophrenic personality disorders, where their neighbor or perhaps a relative would take over the personality in mid discussion. It was like their own Consciousness would be suppressed to let another one take it's place.

So while I personally, this individual of a short mortal life, did not imagine these other beings, there is within me and all of us the consciousness of God that did.

dogbite
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by dogbite » Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:28 pm

And how does one know or come to know this.

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SaidNobody
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by SaidNobody » Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:05 pm

dogbite wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:28 pm
And how does one know or come to know this.
I claim to know nothing. It's simply easier that way. I'm believe a whole lot of stuff though. When I first left the church I thought I knew a lot of things. It was so difficult to accept new ideas because they might contradict things that I already knew. It was painful to learn things that contradicted knowledge that I already had.

To be honest, I thought I pretty much knew everything. Everything had been explained to me in such a way that it all made sense if I believed the things that I've been taught. Because these things came out of scriptures and texts that were well over 3,000 years old, it didn't seem possible that it could be wrong.

The world was static and rigid. I don't claim to know anything. I believe that any and everything that I think or believe could be improved or perhaps completely wrong.

One day, during the meditation, God took me into a place of all knowing. It wasn't what I thought. It wasn't knowledge in the way that we think it. It was seeing how each possibility rolled forward and mixed with other possibilities. There might be a thousand different options off of giving choice and I could see them all. I could pick, if you will, the path to obtainment. The knowledge wasn't a knowing of things, but rather a perception of motion. It might even be considered the spirit of prophecy, the ability to see things happening in the future.

You can get a better sense of knowing by seeing the possibilities then you could ever gather by collecting knowledge. The Bible is a pretty thick book, but it is a mere fragment of what actually happened. As you play the possibilities through your head you will get a better sense of knowing than you would get reading the book itself.

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deacon blues
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by deacon blues » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:02 pm

"In reality--in real life, we deal much more with possibilities and probabilities than certainties." (loosely quoted Roger Price.)

I keep looking at this and thinking, "should I leave it up? Yeah, I'll leave it up." :D
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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SaidNobody
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by SaidNobody » Mon Jun 20, 2022 11:44 am

deacon blues wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:02 pm
"In reality--in real life, we deal much more with possibilities and probabilities than certainties." (loosely quoted Roger Price.)

I keep looking at this and thinking, "should I leave it up? Yeah, I'll leave it up." :D
I came in here to disagree with you, but. . . I can't. There are laws, I agree. But how those laws apply to any given situation could be as varied as cold in the driven snow. The observer is sort of the impact result of any given action, and yet, the observer (depending upon their power) can change the result of almost any given action. Like a fart in church, how it impacts the people will be as varied as the people in the church.

Cnsl1
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by Cnsl1 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:01 am

Well.. I know a lot of things. But I don't know more than I know. At least i don't think i do.

But, you know... there's the known knowns, and the unknown knowns, or is it the known unknowns? And then the unknown unknowns! Shiver. I get the heebie jeebies when i try to quote from the book of Rumsfeld.

And despite all I know, I'm pretty sure that if you put me in a time machine and sent me back to 1920 I would have trouble explaining to people how cell phones and satellites work. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to change their world. I might even have trouble convincing them I'm really from the future.

Give me about 40 years, guys. Then I'll show you. I'm gonna predict the crap out of the super bowls.

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SaidNobody
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Re: If I were an atheist

Post by SaidNobody » Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:11 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:01 am
Well.. I know a lot of things. But I don't know more than I know. At least i don't think i do.

But, you know... there's the known knowns, and the unknown knowns, or is it the known unknowns? And then the unknown unknowns! Shiver. I get the heebie jeebies when i try to quote from the book of Rumsfeld.

And despite all I know, I'm pretty sure that if you put me in a time machine and sent me back to 1920 I would have trouble explaining to people how cell phones and satellites work. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to change their world. I might even have trouble convincing them I'm really from the future.

Give me about 40 years, guys. Then I'll show you. I'm gonna predict the crap out of the super bowls.
It's amazing. Everything you just said is wrong.

Who are we? Are we the high-level consciousness that wakes up in the morning, pees, showers, eats, pays the bills, then goes back to sleep? Or, are we the deeper consciousness as well? The deeper consciousness is aware of stuff the high-level consciousness doesn't even understand and probably doesn't even think the same. The deeper consciousness is aware of so many things. It's aware of water running underground, or what we might call unseen dangers or opportunities. It's not a "knowledge" sort of know but rather an awareness sort of know. Like, you might know the sun is shining, but you don't know exactly where, or what it is. And knowing the sun is up, is that you or some photo-sensitive cells or germs telling you?

Honestly, I wouldn't claim to know anything for sure. But, I believe that the Universe is a friendly place, with many opportunities. I believe that believing literally changes the structure of the universe around, to a degree. Some rules might be unchangeable, but simply believing that you call can change both the past and the future. I'm not sure you convince those people of the past of anything, but if you tried, it would probably have a very interesting effect.

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