Detachment And The Atonement

Discussions about holding onto your faith and beliefs, whether by staying LDS or by exploring and participating in other churches or faiths. The belief in any higher power (including God, Christ, Buddha, or Jedi) is true in this forum. Be kind to others.
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Give It Time
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Detachment And The Atonement

Post by Give It Time » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:26 pm

The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism basically state that life is suffering, suffering comes from being attached to the things of this world, enlightenment comes when we detach from the things of this world. The cessation from suffering comes from following the eightfold path. The eightfold path bears a lot of similarities to the ten commandments.

That first truth that life is suffering sure was a hard one for me to accept. From my man is that he might have joy upbringing. However, if you were to say life isn't fair, I'd readily agree with you. But, I'm coming to at least shake hands with the Buddhist concept. In a way I wish I'd been taught this more explicitly when I was growing up. 2009 was an extremely difficult year for me. It was the year when I had learned of a passion play among some major players in my life. A passion play that had a tragic outcome, an outcome that had me re-examining my own life. 2009 was a year when I heard over and over the atonement could heal my pain if I'd only repent. Thing is, my pain was something that other people had done that I couldn't control that had impacted me, nonetheless. There was no way I could repent. One day, I did hit on the idea that had I not been so attached to these two people, the pain wouldn't have been so accute. This thought shocked me. It just seemed wrong.

Recently, I was learning about how to open your chakras. Full disclosure: I don't know much about this and I'm skeptical, but they did say something I thought was interesting. Basically, opening the last chakra requires letting go of attachments, including to the people we love. They said that most people can't do this. I thought that very interesting, because there are branches of Buddhism that believe in chakras.

Jumping over to Christianity. Someone once said to me there are people who believe that Jesus was an incarnation of Buddha. Now, from a Buddhist perspective, I can see this making sense. I've also been considering how the atonement figures in here. This post was actually brought on by this month's visiting teaching lesson. Especially, this thought from Elder Christofferson's talk, Redemption.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ also satisfies the debt justice owes to us by healing and compensating us for any suffering we innocently endure. ‘For behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam’
As a reminder, Elder Christofferson has a brother who is gay. At first, I was simply thrilled to see this drop of a thought in the usual ocean of repentance rhetoric, but then I remembered the author and I'm wondering if he wrote that single line for his brother, because it there was ever a situation that wasn't fair, that would be it. In contemplating the idea of detaching, because our attachments make up miserable, I realized the beauty (or the sheer genius) of bringing the atonement into this idea. When I considered letting go of my attachment to my source of pain, just letting it go seems too cruel. However, by handing our pain to the Savior, we are turning over our attachments to the embodiment of love, perhaps to be rejoined with them someday. That is anything but cruel.

Do I wish I'd been taught this perspective before those events? Yes! Would that have been helpful? Yes! The beauty of it is this could fit in our doctrine so easily. Just read someone who is suffering from an unfair situation to turn the pain over to the Savior. I haven't looked at the noble eightfold path, but if they need something constructive to focus on while they adjust, stating the same disciplines in Mormon language as a means of moving on would probably work.

Could it have been that Buddha was reincarnated to perform the atonement to make detachment easier for us? I don't know. I'm not really a fan of the idea of reincarnation. I prefer not to think about it too much, but if there is such a thing, I believe this could happen.

I've been entering into a phase where I am opening up communication with my ward. This factor of the atonement is something that could have helped me and could help others in our lives that still believe in the atonement. Even if I don't believe in the atonement, per say, I still find a tremendous amount of comfort in the idea of releasing painful attachments to a source of love.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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document
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Re: Detachment And The Atonement

Post by document » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:39 am

I enjoyed reading this post.

I'm going to throw this out there. When the young, pious rich man went to Jesus and asked what more he could do Jesus told him to sell everything he had and follow him.

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Re: Detachment And The Atonement

Post by MoPag » Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:10 pm

I enjoyed your post too.

When I think about attachment I think about this quote
People were made to be loved. Things were made to be used. The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved, and people are being used.
-Author Unknown
To me, letting go of attachment means letting go of the idea that we somehow own other people. I love how Document mentioned the story of the rich young man. Jesus loved that young man. While the young man's decision probably made Jesus sad, it didn't cause him undo suffering because Jesus doesn't see the young man as a thing he could control. He sees him as his own person with his own agency. So letting go of your attachment to people you love doesn't mean letting go of your love for them. Because you still love them, they can hurt you, but you can temper that hurt with an acceptance of their agency (Seeing them as a person not a thing). Living in the delusion that you can control someone you love; that will bring nothing but suffering.


Hijacking your thread a little bit-sorry
I'm glad you like chakras. I do too. They are super pseudosciencey but I think the under lying idea can be really helpful. For NOMies who don't know what we are talking about, chakras are energy points along your spine. (I don't think we will ever cover them in my A &P class ;) ) Each of them correspond with a different aspect of your life. So one chakra corresponds with your physical body and all of you basic human needs. Another corresponds with your ability to communicate with those around you, stuff like that. I really like doing guided chakra meditations. You can get them on youtube. I'm at work so I can't link any in this post. But, I like doing them because they help me examine these different aspects of myself and my life. Sometimes I notice things in a meditative state that I miss in real life. They also really help me Zen out before I have to go to church. :)
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Give It Time
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Re: Detachment And The Atonement

Post by Give It Time » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:39 pm

document wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:39 am
I enjoyed reading this post.

I'm going to throw this out there. When the young, pious rich man went to Jesus and asked what more he could do Jesus told him to sell everything he had and follow him.
I agree with MoPag. This is an excellent association. We've always been taught that it was about the young man's love of money, but in this light, I see it as his attachment to the things of this world and possibly family and friends, as well. That's a lot to ask of a person.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Give It Time
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Re: Detachment And The Atonement

Post by Give It Time » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:53 pm

MoPag wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:10 pm
I enjoyed your post too.

When I think about attachment I think about this quote
People were made to be loved. Things were made to be used. The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved, and people are being used.
-Author Unknown
To me, letting go of attachment means letting go of the idea that we somehow own other people. I love how Document mentioned the story of the rich young man. Jesus loved that young man. While the young man's decision probably made Jesus sad, it didn't cause him undo suffering because Jesus doesn't see the young man as a thing he could control. He sees him as his own person with his own agency. So letting go of your attachment to people you love doesn't mean letting go of your love for them. Because you still love them, they can hurt you, but you can temper that hurt with an acceptance of their agency (Seeing them as a person not a thing). Living in the delusion that you can control someone you love; that will bring nothing but suffering.


Hijacking your thread a little bit-sorry
I'm glad you like chakras. I do too. They are super pseudosciencey but I think the under lying idea can be really helpful. For NOMies who don't know what we are talking about, chakras are energy points along your spine. (I don't think we will ever cover them in my A &P class ;) ) Each of them correspond with a different aspect of your life. So one chakra corresponds with your physical body and all of you basic human needs. Another corresponds with your ability to communicate with those around you, stuff like that. I really like doing guided chakra meditations. You can get them on youtube. I'm at work so I can't link any in this post. But, I like doing them because they help me examine these different aspects of myself and my life. Sometimes I notice things in a meditative state that I miss in real life. They also really help me Zen out before I have to go to church. :)
I like your interpretation, as well. It is true that Jesus didn't go running after the young man with a plate of brownies. He let the young man decide for himself. People always end the story there, but I've always continued it in my head. Not far. Just far enough that the young man reconsiders his decision. Maybe when he inherits the wealth, he's more generous with it than his predecessors.

I don't know who wrote that saying about using things instead of people, but I've been seeing it pop up in my news feed a lot from a couple of guys who call themselves "The Minimalists". I used to be into simplicity and I badly need to declutter, so my finding these guys was bound to happen sooner or later. An aside, I've been doing their one month decluttering challenge. I will finish, tomorrow. Five hundred items gone! Woohoo!

Chakras have been in the peripheral vision of my attention. I've been learning about Qi Gong and Tai Chi and in exploring that I came across a children's video that is a very basic introduction of the concept and the things we need to release to let our energy flow. I have to admit, what they suggest needs to be released makes a lot of sense.

http://www.higherperspectives.com/chakr ... tml?page=2

I forgot to add that one cannot underestimate the importance of Zen-ing out before church.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Newme
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Re: Detachment And The Atonement

Post by Newme » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:55 am

Give It Time wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:26 pm
I've been entering into a phase where I am opening up communication with my ward. This factor of the atonement is something that could have helped me and could help others in our lives that still believe in the atonement. Even if I don't believe in the atonement, per say, I still find a tremendous amount of comfort in the idea of releasing painful attachments to a source of love.
That could be a healing approach - and more healthy than the orthodox interpretation.
I came to see the atonement (as typically explained) as kind of evil - human sacrifice scape-goating. But when I think of it as a spiritual tool to help let go of anger and other difficult emotions, it can be helpful. Not that I'd want to shift the pain to someone else, but maybe considering what I can learn from it - to make at-one within me and to anyone I may have hurt - and then to use that belief in higher help as a means to let go of "dirty pain." I read this book (by a seemingly NOM) "Joy Diet" which discussed how clean pain is that which naturally results from something. Dirty pain is that pain we add by dwelling on the natural pain. It could be really healing to let go of all that unnecessary suffering by focusing on a higher source of love and understanding.

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Re: Detachment And The Atonement

Post by Newme » Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:00 am

MoPag wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:10 pm
To me, letting go of attachment means letting go of the idea that we somehow own other people. I love how Document mentioned the story of the rich young man. Jesus loved that young man. While the young man's decision probably made Jesus sad, it didn't cause him undo suffering because Jesus doesn't see the young man as a thing he could control. He sees him as his own person with his own agency. So letting go of your attachment to people you love doesn't mean letting go of your love for them. Because you still love them, they can hurt you, but you can temper that hurt with an acceptance of their agency (Seeing them as a person not a thing). Living in the delusion that you can control someone you love; that will bring nothing but suffering.
Reminds me that "Involvement is conditional - love isn't." Still, easier said than done, especially as parents or when you're in charge of youth. There is a sense of responsibility and yet, really, we cannot really control them - only try to influence them to lead them by example etc.

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Give It Time
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Re: Detachment And The Atonement

Post by Give It Time » Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:56 pm

Newme wrote:
Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:55 am
Give It Time wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:26 pm
I've been entering into a phase where I am opening up communication with my ward. This factor of the atonement is something that could have helped me and could help others in our lives that still believe in the atonement. Even if I don't believe in the atonement, per say, I still find a tremendous amount of comfort in the idea of releasing painful attachments to a source of love.
That could be a healing approach - and more healthy than the orthodox interpretation.
I came to see the atonement (as typically explained) as kind of evil - human sacrifice scape-goating. But when I think of it as a spiritual tool to help let go of anger and other difficult emotions, it can be helpful. Not that I'd want to shift the pain to someone else, but maybe considering what I can learn from it - to make at-one within me and to anyone I may have hurt - and then to use that belief in higher help as a means to let go of "dirty pain." I read this book (by a seemingly NOM) "Joy Diet" which discussed how clean pain is that which naturally results from something. Dirty pain is that pain we add by dwelling on the natural pain. It could be really healing to let go of all that unnecessary suffering by focusing on a higher source of love and understanding.
I like your analogy. Kind of like even clean water will eventually become dirty if allowed to sit.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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