Michael Ash -- Bamboozled book

[Rob4Hope]

I don't want to buy it....so has anyone read the Banboozled book and have an opinion about it.

Does it hold any water?....or is it again another smoke/mirrors and changing meanings and words to make things fit book?

I want whatever details anyone out there may have. Pros/cons.....I don't care which way you land. Just share what you got.

[AllieOop]

I don't want to buy it....so has anyone read the Banboozled book and have an opinion about it.

Does it hold any water?....or is it again another smoke/mirrors and changing meanings and words to make things fit book?

I want whatever details anyone out there may have. Pros/cons.....I don't care which way you land. Just share what you got.

I've heard it was horrible. I read part of his book on the shaken faith syndrome and it was an insultingly ridiculous book, so I'm not too interested in reading this one.

The reviews aren't promising for the most part over on Amazon either (I think it gets 2.5 stars out of 5 and there are over 40 reviews).

Here's a sample of his apologetic arguments:


In response to:
"Joseph Smith was not honest. He secretly married and publically denied that he was practicing plural marriage."

Here's his answer:
"Unfortunately, a public acknowledgement of plural marriage could have brought the death of the prophet and/or the Church in Joseph’s day. While lying is typically regarded as dishonest, some circumstances of survival have necessitated altering the truth. In WWII Europe, for example, some Germans protected the lives of Jews whom they harbored in their homes—and then lied about harboring them to the German authorities. Was it okay to lie to save their lives?"

Um, ok

[moksha]

Here is the book in PDF form: http://www.shakenfaithsyndrome.com/bamb ... oozled.pdf

I think this book came about because there were not any good answers to the CES Letter. I think Michael Ash felt compelled to make up something - anything - in response to this scathing attack against his beloved Church. The result is a litany of excuses in reply to the letter. My favorite line was that quote from the band of Priesthood Ninjas riding forth to destroy the men, women, and children of that unfortunate wagon train at Mountain Meadows, “By Grabthar’s Hammer, by the suns of Worvan, you shall be avenged.” The person being avenged in that sentence was Parley P. Pratt, who had been gunned down by a jealous husband for Parley stealing his wife in the same state which the wagon train company originated from.

[fh451]

...“By Grabthar’s Hammer, by the suns of Worvan, you shall be avenged.”

Wow - I laughed way harder at that than I probably should have. Well done, sir!

fh451

[RubinHighlander]

“By Grabthar’s Hammer, by the suns of Worvan, you shall be avenged.”

+1
Love that movie!

Like the Thermians in Galaxy Quest, TBMs have viewed a history of their faith from faraway. While enjoying the aggrandized entertaining view of that history, the truth was far from the COB produced TV shows, conferences, books and correlated lesson manuals they enjoyed for many years. Think of that moment when Commander Taggert is forced to tell the Thermians he lied and the reaction they had to it. Can you imagine if the COB admitted to all the false narrative they've been feeding their members all these years?

I used to be in Michael Ash's ward when I was a TBM. He'd throw in shameless plugs about his book and any chance he had. His circular crazy logic and droning on and on with metaphors is just designed to keep you on a long journey with no real destination at the end. I'd investigated his web site, read of his apologetics and it just seemed like a waist of time to me, even as a TBM. Mike is just trying to be one of the heroes of the last days with the separation of the wheat and tares; he has a cause. I feel bad for him, because it's a no win situation.

[Hagoth]

The Galaxy Quest observations are so much more interesting when you take into account the fact that it was written by a Mormon.

[Not Buying It]

The Galaxy Quest observations are so much more interesting when you take into account the fact that it was written by a Mormon.

No kidding? I love that movie. Just to check, I went to the sure source of all movie knowledge, and IMDB told me this:

David was born in Cedar City, Utah, and raised in Arizona.
Graduated from Southern Utah University with a bachelor's degree in theatre. He is also the holder of an master of fine arts degree from the University of Utah and a master's degree in theatre from Penn State University.

Doesn't look like he's written anything else.

Oh, yeah, and so I can't be accused of threadjacking, Michael Ash has nothing to say that any logical, rational human being has any interest in listening to.

[StarbucksMom]

The reviews aren't promising for the most part over on Amazon either (I think it gets 2.5 stars out of 5 and there are over 40 review

Here's a sample of his apologetic arguments:


In response to:
"Joseph Smith was not honest. He secretly married and publically denied that he was practicing plural marriage."

Here's his answer:
"Unfortunately, a public acknowledgement of plural marriage could have brought the death of the prophet and/or the Church in Joseph’s day. While lying is typically regarded as dishonest, some circumstances of survival have necessitated altering the truth. In WWII Europe, for example, some Germans protected the lives of Jews whom they harbored in their homes—and then lied about harboring them to the German authorities. Was it okay to lie to save their lives?"

Um, ok

Oh. My. Gosh. You have freaking got to be kidding me Allie--this guy had the nerve to compare JS lieing about his cheating/wife stealing/pedophiling--to hiding Jews to save them from the Holocaust?? This can't be serious. What an morally corrupt ba$ta)d. I can't even believe someone would stoop that low.

And DH & I LOVE Galaxy Quest!! We still laugh about it and were just quoting it yesterday. Thanks for the lol Moksha!!

[Rob4Hope]

I understand the logic of telling a lie to save a life, but as others have said, its a pretty big stretch to justify being a prophet of God, violating your own doctrines and making other women adulteresses, then going through mental gymnastics to say: "Oh they weren't having sex" (what a load of bull),...and playing the "oh, he was commanded to do it".

It God really that capricious?...This being who is the "same yesterday, today and forever?"...

OK...I am with you all on this. Ash has a credibility problem.

Any other interesting quotes or things people have?

[Emower]

I put Ash and Trimble in the same camp of ridiculousness.

[moksha]

"Even though many of you saw Renfield catch the fly and chew on it, there is no proof that he swallowed it."
-- The Apologetics of Brahm Stoker, Ash, M., Nosferatu Publishing, 2011

Who in his right mind would try and make up something so tremendous as a restoration of all things including the 1959 Ford Edsel and a stegosaurus?

[Culper Jr.]

Wow, Ash is quite the cinephile. I read through the book from the link above... how completely juvenile. I loathe that dismissive attitude the "book" (pamphlet) is written in, a la FAIR. The book is ridiculously unprofessional and unscholarly, while ironically accusing the CES letter of being unprofessional and unscholarly. That's an hour of my life I'll never get back.

[moksha]

Wow, Ash is quite the cinephile.

You think that is something, just wait till you rub off the scratch n' sniff label to find out who is behind this Bamboozled apologetics. It reads, "Verbal Kint is Keyser Soze". Any idea what that could mean for us NOMS?

[Corsair]

I have read through the Bamboozled PDF and Ash's "Shaken Faith Syndrome". Ash's arguments have a probably unintentional central theme that he seems to not see, but is common in mainstream LDS apologetic arguments. This also shows up in the new Gospel Topics essays. The expectations for Joseph Smith and his writings (BoM, D&C, PoGP) are continually lowered in any way where a material claim is involved. Any claim that is not falsifiable tends to stand like the "witness of the spirit", but expectations of archaeology, history, and sociology are never held to the same standard.

But in contrast, the expectations for LDS people are never lowered at all. Personal righteousness, obedience with exactness, and spiritual purity are held paramount. Sabbath day observance is a new expectation and the increase in temple building has placed addition burdens on members. LDS leadership simply doesn't understand everything that Joseph was doing with plural marriage but they definitely know what members today should be doing with a strict definition of the law of chastity.

The explanations in Michael Ash's books are simply not very compelling. I can see where he comes from but the most charitable acknowledgement I can give is that he and I have come to very different conclusions based on the evidence. I am happy to let him live his life as his moral sense directs him. The difference is the Michael Ash, FairMormon, the correlation department, and LDS leadership continue to believe that their narrative is compelling and should mandate an obligation upon current and former members. They are not content to let me live according to my own moral sense.

[AllieOop]

Oh. My. Gosh. You have freaking got to be kidding me Allie--this guy had the nerve to compare JS lieing about his cheating/wife stealing/pedophiling--to hiding Jews to save them from the Holocaust?? This can't be serious. What an morally corrupt ba$ta)d. I can't even believe someone would stoop that low.

I agree. Pretty offensive and what a crazy apologetic argument. I wonder if even the most believing Mormon would accept that one and say, "well, that makes all of Joseph's lies ok".

[Korihor]

I have a copy of Shaken Faith Syndrome.
Before my shelf broke and I was unknowingly loading up my shelf, I obtained a copy of this book. It didn't have any affect on me at the time as it answered questions that I wasn't asking. I just thought, that's an odd book, it justifies supporting the Book of Mormon but I already know the BoM is true. Maybe this was written for non-members.

Later, when things came crashing down, I recalled this book and how absurd it is.

If anyone wants to see its insanity with your own eyes, I'll mail it to you. I'm getting ready to do another purge. PM me if interested.

[Vlad the Emailer]

Oh. My. Gosh. You have freaking got to be kidding me Allie--this guy had the nerve to compare JS lieing about his cheating/wife stealing/pedophiling--to hiding Jews to save them from the Holocaust?? This can't be serious. What an morally corrupt ba$ta)d. I can't even believe someone would stoop that low.

Welcome to Mormon apologetics. There is no level of bullsheet too low for the likes of Ash and Peterson to crawl out from under and defend their cult.

[Vlad the Emailer]

"Even though many of you saw Renfield catch the fly and chew on it, there is no proof that he swallowed it."
-- The Apologetics of Brahm Stoker, Ash, M., Nosferatu Publishing, 2011

Hey, I resemble that remark! And I'll have you know that my loyal Renfield only ate insects and arachnids so they could go on to their eternal reward and not have to tarry in a frightening world full of lizards, frogs, and flyswatters.

[Vlad the Emailer]

This effing makes me want to use exmormon reddit language. I am so sickened by not only the suggestion, but the allegation that we "critics" are wrong, unenlightened, lazy, etc. when we don't accept such absurdities as this little gem from dear Brother Ash's CES Letter defense:

Let’s suppose, first of all, that the critics are right
—Joseph copied the KJV passages directly from his Bible. How might this have happened?

Here’s one scenario: Joseph Smith is translating the Book of Mormon and comes across passages that were also
recorded in the Bible. Joseph realizes this either on his own, or through inspiration, or from a voice on high. "Hey, I know this p
art" Joseph might have said to Oliver. Hand me the Bible. As he looks over the Biblical verses he says to his scribe: Well, we know that the
Bible is the Word of God, so let’s stick with the way it’s expressed in the scriptures to make sure I get this right.

The absurdity goes on to describe, not other possible explanations, but how THIS explanation could be credible.

And the critics are the f***ing problem????

I hate the F word, but I don't know what else expresses the level of anger and near hatred that my mind spews when I come upon crap like this. Not only do jack***es like this insult the intelligence of a flea with such manure, but because TBMs would much rather be comforted that correct, the apologists get away with it!!

Well, alas, I'm so glad to know that our poor little, uneducated, didn't even own a bible at the time (according to other apologist responses), Joe was such a biblical expert that he recognized the Isaiah verses and knew he could skip getting actual direct inspiration from God and just copy from the inferior "as far as it is translated correctly" bible.

[Rob4Hope]

I have a copy of Shaken Faith Syndrome.
Before my shelf broke and I was unknowingly loading up my shelf, I obtained a copy of this book. It didn't have any affect on me at the time as it answered questions that I wasn't asking. I just thought, that's an odd book, it justifies supporting the Book of Mormon but I already know the BoM is true. Maybe this was written for non-members.

Later, when things came crashing down, I recalled this book and how absurd it is.

If anyone wants to see its insanity with your own eyes, I'll mail it to you. I'm getting ready to do another purge. PM me if interested.

Bring it to the meeting sunday (If I remember who you are Korihor). I'll take it...and read it. I want to see what the book says. I just don't want to pay for it.

Did someone say there is a pdf out there for it?....I'll google it and see.